Finally a victory for common sense! Will other sports follow?

[BilbyBlue]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Finally it has been formally acknowledged that transwomen pose a danger to women in sports. I'm hoping the next logically conclusion is that all that biological advantage also makes it incredibly unfair. Huzzah for common sense!

Transwomen could probably play against men if they want. They'd have to accept a level of risk compared to men. The same risk they are women to accept by wanting to play with them i.e. risk of injury by playing against stronger competitors. If it's supposedly not a problem for women to take that risk, then it shouldn't be a problem for them either.

(Of course it is a problem, which is where the waiver comes in. You can sign one for yourself but you can't compel others to sign that they acknowledge that you may harm them)

As a parent of a DD that plays rugby I am really pleased about this, she already has had a fractured vertebrae from someone large landing on her!!

She is very woke and I will be livid if she complains about this... she is tiny and 9 stone.

I don’t have a perfect solution but I don’t like blanket bans on certain people playing.
I’ve played both women’s and mixed rugby (mixed was a touch rugby game). I’m 5 foot 9 and over 16 stone. When I tackled women smaller than me I had to be mindful that I could hurt them - I could easily flatten my 5 foot 4 9 stone friend, for example. I was taught how to tackle carefully to avoid this. Why can the same not be true of trans women?

To the op who asked me why I wasn’t sticking up for women - I am trying to! In the past a lot of oppression against women was in the basis that we were delicate little flowers who needed protecting from the big hairy scary men. I don’t subscribe to this view (and I doubt many do) I do t need protecting from men - if men commit assault against me or any woman they they need punishing - and we teach all our children that all people are alike in dignity.

Non of this is solved by creating a system where women are seen as ‘other’ and in need of protecting in some way.

No one is saying that transwomen and Transmen can’t play rugby

As far as i can see no one is banning transpeople from any sport

I’m 5 foot 9 and over 16 stone. When I tackled women smaller than me I had to be mindful that I could hurt them - I could easily flatten my 5 foot 4 9 stone friend, for example.

You wouldn’t stand a chance against a 5 foot 9, over 16 stone man and you’re kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Men have stronger bones, thicker skulls, greater muscle mass, etc.

I was taught how to tackle carefully to avoid this. Why can the same not be true of trans women? No, because they’re male bodied people and naturally stronger and faster than women. No amount of teaching will change that.

What about all the female players that don’t want to play with male bodied people? Women have a right to decide on their boundaries and when that right collides with the wants of a male bodied person, then the woman’s right to refuse should take precedent. Why are you more concerned about the feelings of male bodied people, than the safety of women?

I do t need protecting from men - if men commit assault against me or any woman they they need punishing - and we teach all our children that all people are alike in dignity.

That might have something to do with the fact that you’re taller and more muscular than most women, but even if you weren’t, your lack of empathy with females is very strange. Men commit @95% of physical and sexual crime against women, but you shrug your shoulders and say they should be punished if that happens!? Do you believe all female areas should be unisex and we should just do away with any attempts to protect women and children and just punish the bad men, because we don’t want to hurt male’s feelings, by suggesting some males might be dangerous? Give your head a wobble.

So am I right in understanding that trans men can play with the men, but trans women can’t play at all? Because if so, that would seem unfair. Of course trans women can play whatever sport they want, but there is no place for them in women’s sport. And if we’re talking about fairness, do you think it’s fair that women are being ‘folded like deckchairs’ by Kelly Morgan? Do you think it’s fair that Fallon Fox was able to fracture Tamika Brent’s skull? Do you think it’s fair that a woman was forced off the podium because Laurel Hubbard (who was unsuccessful when competing against men) took the gold? How is any of that fair? Why are the rights and the safety of women considered less important than the wants of athletes such as Kelly, Fallon and Laurel?

We are often told that sport is for all, yet excluding a group of people based on a factor they cannot control is ok? We wouldn’t be cheering excluding people who are black, or disabled, or gay. I don’t think you’ve thought this through. No, of course we wouldn’t be cheering the exclusion of any bame, lesbian or bisexual women playing sport against other women. The colour of their skin or their sexual orientation isn’t going to cause any other women potentially life threatening injuries. It’s a level playing field for all of them. They’re all going to have similar bone structure, lung capacity, testosterone levels etc. They all stand an equal chance of winning. Comparing disabled people in sport to trans people in sport is a complete red herring. That’s why we have disabled teams and the Paralympic Games, so that nobody is excluded, nobody is injured and winning a medal is dependent on talent and training.

I appreciate that sport must be kept safe for all, but I’m uncomfortable with the idea that a group of people are prohibited from playing in this way and feel things could have been done better. You’re uncomfortable with the idea that it’s not okay for women to risk serious injury playing against trans women so that nobody gets upset? There is no ‘but’. Sport must be kept safe for all. That’s it.

Of course trans women shouldn’t be excluded from the sport of their choice. They should be afforded the same rights and respect as any other athlete. That does not include a space in women’s sports.

I don’t have a perfect solution but I don’t like blanket bans on certain people playing. There’s a bloody good reason why Anthony Joshua wouldn’t be allowed to fight whoever the Featherweight champion is. Nobody is against trans women playing in women’s sport because they are trans. People are against it because it is potentially dangerous and hugely unfair.

I’ve played both women’s and mixed rugby (mixed was a touch rugby game). Good for you, hope you enjoyed it. But you actively sought a place in that mixed game, understanding the risks of someone built like Gareth Thomas tackling you. What about the women who don’t want to be ‘folded like a deckchair’? What about the women who want to stand a chance against tackling their opponent? Should they just step down and leave the sport?

I was taught how to tackle carefully to avoid this. Why can the same not be true of trans women? The only trans rugby player that I’m aware of appears to have less consideration for their opponents than you.

In the past a lot of oppression against women was in the basis that we were delicate little flowers who needed protecting from the big hairy scary men. Nothing to do with the stats on which sex commits the most violent crimes and which sex has the most violent crimes committed against them, then?

Non of this is solved by creating a system where women are seen as ‘other’ and in need of protecting in some way. Do you truly not see that women are being seen as more and more ‘other’ as every day passes? We’ve gone from being women to being cis, uterus having, menstruating, non men. Forcing women to budge over even further and make room in our single sex spaces is only ever going to increase that.

I want my DD to have a chance at playing at national level, why should that chance be eroded by TW who by default have a physical advantage over her?

In the US were sports scholarships are worth $$$$$$ I would be interested to see the stats of TW in the non-Male population at age 18 versus TW in the non-Male sports scholarship awards. Then review annually. Some female athletic scholarships have already been awarded to TW

Thank goodness for this.

Not just a victory for common sense, but for science too. There's been increasing amounts of evidence building up over the last few years (research from the Karolinska institute, Emma Hilton's excellent review article which I think is currently out for peer-review for a journal) that testosterone suppresssants reduce transwomen's muscular strength relative to men, but don't bring them down to anything close to the female range. And that's before you even get onto the things like greater bone density, greater VOMax etc, which aren't affected by cross-sex hormones.

Of particular relevance in rugby are (a) the fact that women are far more susceptible to concussion than men and (b) that it involves things like scrums and rucks which put the neck at particular risk of injury.

Rugby poses particular risks with regard to safety. But across the board, women should not be playing sport against individuals who've been through male puberty. IIRC, the male age 15 100m record is faster than the women's 100m record. Women's sport should not be reduced to being an exercise in validation for mediocre male sportspeople.

Really good to see this.

@FrenchFancie If they are taking testosterone they can’t compete against other women. That’s cheating and currently against the rules of most sports.