15 months of Potty Training - still no success

[waterjungle]

We started toilet training with my son at 2years and 10 months. Success was sporadic but seemed to be on an upward trajectory.
There have been peaks and troughs. We've had witholding, total denial that he needs to go, sitting on the toilet for 30 mins at a time only to poo pants within 20 mins of getting off. All of this has been interspersed with a few weeks of relative success.
He is now 4 and due to start schools in September and after a sort of successful few weeks we are in a major backslide again. He argues when we tell him to go to the toilet, or puts his fingers in his ears and doesn't want to talk about it and runs away or says he doesn't need to go only to wet or poo himself within 30 mins.
We have tried a complete no pressure approach, this seemed to work at first but then he goes back to casually announcing he has wee'd himself or poo-ed himself and telling us "don't worry - it doesn't matter"
We are trying a reward for just one day dry but he can't even get that far at the moment. This morning he pooed himself with 30 mins of getting up even though we had put him on the toilet just before - he sat there and said "Nope - I don't need a poo, it's not working'.
He is starting work school in 6 weeks and I don't want him being the child that smells as sometimes he just sits in, or denies that it has happened.
We have literally tried everything including Movical now we don't know where to go or what to do....

Does he help clean up?

He has done - which he found quite fun, certainly not enough to put him off. He was all "Can I put my pants in the washing machine?!"
That then changed to not wanting to even look at the pants - "No! Take them away, I don't like it!"

Try reading the story Poo Goes to Pooland to encourage him to pop on the toilet. There is also an App or video of it too. It’s an NHS story I think - search online and print off.

Also the ERIC website may have some useful info and you can contact them for advice.

Perhaps also the HV although tbh I don’t hold them in high regard, but some people do.

When you have your home visit from the school before he starts you need to talk to the teacher about his toileting issues.

It sounds a bit like attention-seeking behaviour that has gone on too long? Would he normally attend nursery and does he soil and wet himself there too?

Good luck.

What do you do whilst he’s on the potty/ toilet waiting to go? Also what’s he doing, just sitting there?

We did show him Poo Goes to Poo Land, he would sit there and watch it over and over on the toilet but still not do anything.
We tried sitting with him on the toile and just chatting, again he would happily sit there for up t 40 mins without doing anything. He then went through a stage where he wouldn't let us in and would insist in being on his own. At first this seemed to be working and we thought it was a step towards him taking responsibility for himself - then he would just jump off and say "No, don't need to go".
We have tried letting him read a book on there but that's all he would do, we tried bribery with a toy or phone that he could only play with on the loo, he would just get cross that he couldn't use it at other times or use the toilet so he could play with it and not do any actual toilet business!
He would happily sit there singing to himself.
We contacted ERIC about 4 months ago and got Movical at their suggestion, they also said not to make a big deal out of it but consequently he now either thinks it is not a big deal or tries to hide it as he just doesn't want to deal with it.

I used the oh crap potty training book, think there’s a chapter on such stubbornness in there that maybe worth a read. Has he ever attended a pre school?

I would get a referral to your local childrens bladder/ bowel or continence clinic. They are specialists nurses who will help. In my experience gp do not really understand or know how to address. Gp or HV can refer you, but if you google them and call they can tell you how to access so youknow who to ask for the referral. Get onto it asap as it can be a ling haul to 'fix' this and may be a delay from referral to appointment.

You will need to flag with school- some seem less willing to help children who soil themselves so best ti understand in advance what their protocol is ( ie will they help clean child or call you to sort)

Good luck

They are supposed to sort it.

I was told to make the cleanup operation more time consuming than going to the loo would be! Also not to make a thing of it but deal with it unemotionally. Pass him his clothes, you wash these through and I'll wipe the floor.
In the end, what worked for us was me telling him when to go. First thing in the morning, before going out etc. Not asking (as them he'd say no) but saying he needed to go and see if a wee wanted to come out. If he complained I said we could try for the day but if he wet himself then he had to go when I told him. Eventually, he began to notice himself. School wasn't an issue as they sent all the kids before outdoor play and he never did a poo there so no problems about cleaning himself.

Agree with pp it does seem like attention seeking. I would try and ignore the whole situation for a week and see what happens.

Thanks to all for the advice. We have used the Oh Crap book, that was the initial route we took.
We are telling him regularly to go - not asking but this normally results in him running away screaming NO! I don't need to!
When we eventually get him up there (sometimes by having to physically carry him there) he will sit on the toilet and do nothing! Then poo himself later. We take him regularly and it follows the same pattern.
Considering he has done 3/4 weeks with almost no accidents I thought this would be motivation for him. We tried positive reinforcement saying - isn't it great being a big boy doing this yourself? Don't you feel better being in clean pants? - but the ideas don't seem to link up.
I am going to try and speak to the GP again today, we didn't get much joy last time.

Has he been to a nursery or pre school? If not, I’m wondering if seeing his peers use the loo will be good encouragement

OnlyFoolsnMothers
He is at nursery 2 days a week. For the few months he would be coming home with anything from a sporadic good day where he was clean and dry to 4 changes of pants a day.
Now he has gone back after lockdown he was coming back without any accidents most times but I don't know if that is because he is holding it in. If we don't make him go the as soon as he is home he will more often than not have an accident.
I have tried asking if he friends their use the toilet and doesn't he want to be like them? He gives all the right answers but doesn't seem to connect that with actually doing it.
If I can see that he wants to go and try a more gently approach and suggest he makes the right choice to avoid an accident he will say "I'll go tomorrow" or "I went this morning", or "NO THANKYOU!".
He seems to want no involvement in the process to the extent that he will tell you to stop talking or put his hand over your mouth or fingers in his ears.....

I am having similar issues with my DD so you have my utmost sympathy. She is fine for wees, no accidents, but won't poo in the loo. Our arrangement is that she wears a pull up when she wants a poo so at least we don't have accidents anymore. Perhaps you could try putting back in nappies, maybe the pressure is getting to him (even if he appears to be fine with failure, maybe he is a bit stressed?). With DD we don't make a thing about loo other than to say well done for a wee in the toilet and well done for a poo in the nappy because she went through a phase of withholding poo that caused constipation and that was horrendous. We have said that eventually she will need to do her poos in the loo but for now (pre school) it's ok. No idea if we are doing the right thing but it seems to me that if your DC is stubborn about toileting it is vastly better to get there themselves rather than under duress.

For most of his 'conscious' life, he has been nagged agout the toilet. I suspect he switched off mentally months ago.

It's summer. So how about he spends all day in the garden (accidents won't matter). You have a big old fashioned bell on the step he rings when he needs the loo. It's his bell. No one else can touch it, including you, so he has to put it away at bed time. You take him in, praise him for using the loo, back outside. Don't mention the toilet to him other than explaining in the morning what the bell is for.

I did something similar with mine, but my circumstances allowed it.

CaffeineInfusion
I really like the bell idea and I think we will try that.
We decided a few months ago to completely lay off talking about it and make sure we weren't putting any pressure on him - I think we were all sick of it. At first that seemed to work and we thought we had found the answer but we are very firmly back to the old pattern again now.

Is he using a potty or a toilet?
We gave up with a potty and went straight to using a toilet (well you don't see mummy and daddy using a potty do you?!

Have you or DH voiced your own satisfaction at emptying your bladder or bowels?
Like "ah that's a good poo, my tummy feels so much better".

Have you tried the bubble game?
Get DC sat on the toilet. Get a beaker of water and a straw (you will need to have these ready beforehand).
Get your DC to see who can make the biggest bubbles by blowing through the straw into the water.
Apparently blowing uses the right combination of muscles that are also used to evacuate the bowel.

I found setting alarms on my phone or Alexa helped, and every time DD had to go and try. It depersonalised it a bit because it wasn’t Mummy nagging, it was the alarm! I set different noises so it was fun too.

How's it going @CaffeineInfusion?