Defund the police

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

Can't help but think this slogan is just not going to pull people in.

As explained in the article below, it actually makes a LOT of sense.

"Fund social justice" might have been a more positive message though?....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/02/britain-defund-the-police-black-lives-matter?CMP=ShareAndroidApppNewsFeed&fbclid=IwAR11MrOmcaUZbLsfqjttDAHtv_cxxPEnS60j4SAwNXRF6RWrZZfeKyjhkBM

I think.if they said 'de-militarise the police' in the US it would get more support ..over here I'd like to see 'Educate the Police'...individual acts of bravery and compassion by officers notwithstanding, Plod can be Institutionally Thick too.

I was very against the idea until I actually researched it and now I agree. Getting a team of mental health professionals to deal with people with severe mental health issues having a breakdown in public is FAR preferable to them having to be dealt with by the police. They know how to talk to them and it’s less threatening.
Similarly, bringing back youth clubs and youth workers to work with disenfranchised young people and help them with their futures in a positive way is also another great use of funds and reduces future crime rates.
Putting money into employment schemes and decriminalising people found with tiny amounts of drugs on them is also a great idea and more money can be diverted to drug programmes,
Tackling these issues at their root is going to be far more effective than waiting until they’re really bad then using force and aggression to criminialise people

Brahumbug Like I said A MINORITY of police think they are above the law. It doesn't mean the whole police force is corrupt. I doubt the IOPC is brushing any cases under the carpet to protect bad policemen. With me it all starts with respect. The police are there to uphold the law. Break the law you risk being on the wrong side. You seem to know a lot more about that than me.

I am sure Russellbrandshair that Police do not go around using force and aggression unless a person gives reason to.
I agree that social care, mental health care and youth services need much more funding to get at the heart of the problem. When I was growing up we had a youth club (back in the 80's) we would often see our local policeman who would chat with us and make sure we weren't up to no good. We where terrified of getting into trouble, not because of the police brutality but because of what our parents would do to us.
The UK Police are unarmed. They help thousands of people everyday in all sorts of horrible situations. They certainly need more funding, not to be defunded or constantly accused of violence and brutality.

@russellbrandshair

Yes a team of mental health professionals maybe better, however you still need the police in that situation. In a situation like that you need to be able to dial 999 and get someone there asap, you dont want to have to think. People call the police in a crisis because they are panicking

Are you going to have specialist teams on call 24/7 all over the country? For each different situation?

Yes of course social care, social projects, community projects for people at risk of turning to crime are important but you still need the police. You cant defund the police to pay for it.

The police are already massively stretched, if we take funding away and divert it your fucked. I work in a hospital and I am happy to work on criminals/potentially violent patients etc. But theres always the back up of the police, like fuck would I want to work with potentially violent patients if there was reduced police backup. Are people going to want to work with potentially violent youths if the chance of the police coming is significantly less? Ideally we would catch people before they got to that stage but we wont, theres always going to be criminals.

Also in a lot of situations just the thought/presence of the police can be really calming.

Sometimes it just takes a police officer to be present for someone to stop kicking off. The police are actually really fucking good at calming a situation down. The majority of interactions police have will be calm, professional and non-aggressive. But there are of course times when the police need to be able to be aggressive and use force. There will be occaional police that use force too readily, but they are massively in the minority - like with any job there are always bad eggs, you will find crap drs, teachers even god forbid nurses

I think there a lot of things that should be defunded before we cut the police budget even shorter. Like having the PM subsidising OW businesses, or allowing his ministers to take “commissions” to approve projects in a hurry to save taxes.

No social system works in the absence of rule enforcement.

I wonder if those crying out for the defunding of police are in large towns and cities where there are actually police.

In many rural areas, there are no police officers anymore.

Before calling for the police to be defunded has anyone spoken to social workers or mental health workers to find out if they are willing to become the fourth emergency service?

How many would be willing not turn up to a situation and risk having a knife pulled on them or be assaulted or an innocent bystander attacked because they couldn't control the situation?

Even hospitals, who arguably already have mental health professionals there, still call the police to come and help, especially in A and E. Should that stop too then? Presumably yes.

So many videos on line where youths are stopped and start screaming bloody murder about being unfairly picked on by the police,now aided by a series of onlookers who have become social justice warriors, only for the search to take place and the police find a carving knife tucked into a jacket sleeve or similar.

Do you want that on our streets? Should we call a social worker instead if we suspect someone of carrying a knife?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

They would have to get in line behind mountain rescue, cave rescue, coastguard and lifeboat, schools and the AA (yup the car one).

"Defund the police" is entirely sensible in America. Not here.

@FrippEnos

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

They would have to get in line behind mountain rescue, cave rescue, coastguard and lifeboat, schools and the AA (yup the car one).

Ok. They can be the tenth emergency service then. Point remains - there's someone ranting and raving in the street, causing a disturbance - how many social workers are going to volunteer to come out and deal with the situation and face this person suddenly pulling out a knife and going after either them or a passer by?

Look at the recent attacks in Reading and Glasgow - who ran towards the attackers?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I agree defunding the police in the UK is ridiculous.

I also think that defunding the American police is also ridiculous unless you are going to disarm the population.

@FrippEnos

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I agree defunding the police in the UK is ridiculous.

I also think that defunding the American police is also ridiculous unless you are going to disarm the population.

Agree, and that's the elephant in the room when it comes to the US. I've seen many people protesting about police in the US approaching traffic stops in a less than friendly manner, hand hovering over their gun - can you blame then though? In a split second the driver of the car could whip.out a gun and shoot them. That threat must surely affect how police act in America?

The problem in america is guns

Everyone the police approach theres a chance they have a gun and might shoot them. Obviously the police for are going to be more aggressive when theres a significant chance they might get shot

I’m sick of this unthinking importation of US politics into the U.K. The two countries, and the contexts of racism in each, are very different. This push to install American radical politics here is a kind of colonialism in its own right.

It's a nifty catchphrase until someone's breaking into your house at 2am.

Before you ask, I read the article and I agree that the re-introduction of community groups and funding of mental health facilities is potentially the silver bullet. As a pp said though, those need to be started almost from scratch and will take several years to become effective. Even when they do, they will almost certainly be reliant on a police escort at 2am when someone is going berserk.

Re-introducing the UK licensing laws would I think have an immediate effect on police and NHS resources.

@DishRanAwayWithTheSpoon

The problem in america is guns

Everyone the police approach theres a chance they have a gun and might shoot them. Obviously the police for are going to be more aggressive when theres a significant chance they might get shot

Precisely.

TSSDNCOP

I agree. I would go further - poverty also needs to be tackled.

The police have basically been used to mop up all of societies ills and now they are being blamed for it. Too many services have been cut to the bone in terms of funding - education, health, mental healths services, housing, drug rehab, welfare state but then individuals also need to take personal responsibility too imo. If you break the law I think you should expect to be dealt with.

@ShutUpaYourFace
Break the law you risk being on the wrong side. You seem to know a lot more about that than me.

Why are you clearly implying I am some kind of law breaker or criminal? I have never had any kind of criminal conviction. Yes I do know a lot more than you, which is why I have stated facts not worthless opinions such as yours. It isn't a minority of police because that is the mentality encouraged in all constables. They have a poor knowledge of the law and dislike anyone sticking up for their rights. Hence they will demand your details and when their have no right to them and threaten people with bogus section 5 public order offenses. Have you not seen the latest examples of black drivers being stopped and searched because the police could "smell cannabis " which was clearly a lie as no drugs if any kind were found? Just take the time to look into police behaviour and you will literally 100s of examples, not the odd one or two. Our police are out of control and a threat to democracy.

Oh dear @brahumbug. Don't tell me you are scared for your life every time you walk out the door? Police brutality happens on your door step every day.
From your previous posts I assume nothing like this has ever actually happened to you, it's all stuff you've read on social media no doubt.
I'm sure if you had suffered police brutality you would have told us your story.

You tell me I Am Wrong but I am entitled to my Worthless opinion as you say.
Well, I believe your opinion is not only worthless but dangerous. You will teach and preach Police brutality to anyone you can, talk like this to kids and surprise surprise we have another generation believing the police are the enemy and not to be trusted. Then history repeats. If communities tried working with the police instead of believing they are trained to be evil, just out to get you for no reason! Most Police officers are decent people who want to help others.

If people had more RESPECT for the police and the law and didn't believe they are above it. Half the incidents you mention would not happen. You can say what you like and have your own opinion but I hardly believe that all the situations you mention were started by the police, attacking and assaulting innocent people going about their daily law abiding day.
You are deluded if you think they were.
Officers have lost their lives protecting the people of this country. Where is your respect?

"Our police are out of control and a threat to democracy."

Really - you would prefer a lawless country each to their own?
Also meant to ask which country are you in.
I think you are mixing up the UK with the USA.

@GCAcademic

I’m sick of this unthinking importation of US politics into the U.K. The two countries, and the contexts of racism in each, are very different. This push to install American radical politics here is a kind of colonialism in its own right.

Couldn't agree more. There was actually a poster on here a few weeks ago who was having an argument on how to refer to their black british friend - her dh was convinced that referring to said friend as "African American" was the polite term rather than describing him as 'black' despite the fact the friend had never even visited either Africa or America.

Same with the JKR trans stuff - sorry to bring that up - but regardless of all the other rights/wrongs with that issue one major source of the flack she was getting was outrage that she decided to mention it during the middle of BLM . No understanding that to a woman living in Scotland, the passing of legislation in the country she lived in that very day might actually be more immediately relevant than the death of a male several weeks earlier in a completely different continent?

There are lots of other examples but looking at the police specifically - last year more than a thousand people were killed by the police in the USA. Here is the list for the UK: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom
As you can see it is tiny in comparison - and many of those that are there are ones where officers had very few other tactical options, e.g. in major terrorist incidents.

If you want to try funding other support services and community initiatives first, and then after five/ten years do a review and then maybe removing funding from the police if you can prove that the number of mental health/gang related related incidents they have been deployed to has reduced significantly, then great, go for it. I think the police would be jumping for joy if they only had to do the jobs they actually signed up to do rather than be the last port of call for all mental health emergencies.

But to defund the police first and just hope it all works out ok, would be a huge risk.

It’s to do with US policing not to do with what we have policing there. In America cities quite often police budgets are 30 to 40% of city budget and they use it buy equipment that would be more appropriate in Kabul, as was particularly noticeable in Ferguson Riots.

A good illustration is that the la school police have recently returned their grenade launcher www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-schools-weapons-20140917-story.html

If you want to learn more there is quite a lot in the New Yorker magazine but I particularly recommend ‘I heart radio’s podcast ‘behind the police’ - it’s very sweary and generally not childsuitable but it does make it very clear how different UK and US policing situation are.

No intelligent person with actual critical thinking skills and a modicum of common sense supports the notion of defunding the police.
The only people advocating for that in the UK are those with a political axe to grind and want to pretend that policing in the US and here is the same. It. Is. Not. Those advocating for it I assume are going to be the first to volunteer to search an empty building alone at night after reports of a break in or cut down a body thats been found hanging to try and save a life. Yeah, right.
In America tge argument makes more sense as many here have pointed out but even then whats required in the American policing is massive root and branch reform as opposed to doing away with police altogether.
The police are the agency other agencies turn to when the shit hits the fan. Social workers and mental health workers are not going to kick in doors to get to a person threatning to kill themselves or run at a person threatning someone with a knife. Nor should they.
Presumably those who support defunding tge police would also want to defund specialist trained officers who deal with sexual abuse victims, officers who watch sickening child abuse images in order to identify victims and offenders, defund complex imvestigations against organised crime and so on. It is all policing.

No I don't want a lawless society. I want an accountable police force who respect the rule of law. I want ridiculous vague laws like section5 repealing as they are routinely abused. If a police officer abuses his powers he should be held to account and not have the offence swept under the carpet. I also want to see investigatory powers properly regulated. Freedom of expression is vital. Tyranny thrives in darkness.