Could a corporate equality score be a way forwards?

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With black lives matter I've been thinking about how my day to day world is a bit of a small bubble, even smaller at present.

Whilst I think I'm reasonably PC, or try hard to be, I don't actively consider my actions in using organisations, who are in a position of influence.

I don't know if my bank/ insurers/ the brands I buy from barely pay lipservice to the equalities act or are proactive in taking meassures to overcome barriers people experience. I don't know how easy it would be to find that information.

So could there be a voluntary/ compulsory over a certain size, system that would allow customers to have a bit more visibility on what sort of organisation they're supporting?

Also @Muminabun is talking utter bullshit. Aggregate data from the ONS demonstrates that there are entrenched pay gaps. That's based on thousands of companies with over 250 people reporting 3 years worth of annual data. That is the definition of systemic.

I have never come across systemic racism

Yawn.

i suspect the difference in poverty levels between Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and Indians has to do with their level of education from the country of origin.
as an engineer you would be aware that not all degrees and educational institutions are regarded equally.
i would like to know more about the research, such as first, second, and third generation data.

@MouseholeCat but if you know this then you know what is behind the pay gap reporting. Is it bullshit that women choose to work in more part time roles with lower pay due to more caring responsibilities? Therefore this results in a gender pay gap , but due to choice not sexism.

Just tried to google imigration generational percentage data, unsucessfully. Didn't immigration tighten significantly from non EU in the early 70s? (Very sketchy understanding in this area).

Wouldn't that make most non EU imigrants now either second generation, partially or completely UK educated, retired or for a tiny percentage near retirement age.

So educated elsewhere should be less relevant and in theory should result in a change in poverty within the relevant community that doesnt appear to be happening.

Is it bullshit that women choose to work in more part-time roles with lower pay due to more caring responsibilities

This is such a reductive interpretation of the origin of gender pay gaps it makes me deeply concerned that you have access to such data. I hope you are not someone who gets to make strategic decisions or set organisational policy on the matter.

You cannot infer choice from a statistical pattern- if you are, you just speak from your own bias. Not just that, a basic understanding of behavioural economics will tell you that choice is often a misnomer: the actual options we have are vastly coloured by our economic standing, demographic characteristics, educational background and the wider society we live in.

Women are more likely to have to make the choice to be in lower-paid roles for many reasons. For example, women are less exposed to promotion opportunities because the entire weight of society, including unbalanced parental leave legislation, means that there is often little advantage to male partners taking overall caring responsibilities.

women choose to work in more part time roles with lower pay due to more caring responsibilities

1. Discrimination increases probability that the father earns more than the mother. Combine that with social expectations of gender roles, and it isn't as simple as women 'making a choice'.

1. Just because some women make that choice, doesn't mean that discrimination isn't also affecting them (and other women who didn't)

To clarify, I'm not BAME. My experience of discrimination has been working as a woman in IT.

Something I've noticed is that people who aren't discriminated against often don't even realise it's happening. My own experience - and how surprised men are when I tell them - is what made me realise how prevalent and damaging other forms of discrimination are, even though I don't see them. And then when I've talked to other people about it, they often have their own stories.

@muminabun - you're the 'expected' image in your chosen career role. But in your role, it's really important you open your mind to the reality of discrimination. Ask some friends about it (not colleagues, since they may choose not to tell you). A pp said that 30% is where the protective effect of normalisation takes place, but I think it's more subtle than that. Just think about whether your friend fits the stereotype for their job, or whether it's slightly surprising they do it. Do it just to prove me wrong (and you might be surprised!).

This is quite an interesting site to explore if you do indeed have unconscious biases as has been suggested

implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

If they are such huge problems then how are there so very many successful people in all jobs and all walks of life who are from very different groups.

You must be able to see that this logic is flawed.

1. Just because people are successful doesn't mean they haven't been negatively affected by discrimination. Can't emphasise this one enough.

1. Just because some people are successful despite the headwind of discrimination, doesn't mean there aren't many others who have been held back by it.

If there are not huge problems why are there fewer BAME people heading businesses and in high flying roles than would be proportionate to the population?

@attackedbycritters I am not saying that race discrimination does not exist but culture also plays a part.

@MouseholeCat. Statistics are the outcome of choices and behaviours. You then go on to explain that gender pay gaps have more to do with other factors than sexism which I know and agree with. You then explain that the main reason for the pay gap are the economic reasons made by men and women. You have seen the same data as me and taken a different conclusion based on your own strong bias. On another note it is my view that women should be allowed additional pregnancy, maternity and Generally parental leave.

@Nordicwannabe how do you know I am the expected image of my job. 😂

@muminabun - have to admit I'm basing my assumption partly on your username but mainly on your apparent lack of awareness of discrimination. Which is perhaps a bit circular

So tell me, apart from being female (assumed from your username) - which is probably >50% in HR - do you have any other protected characteristics?

Visa's efforts to effect change

@Nordicwannabe of the 9 I would be directly protected under 6. Do you see the irony of you basing your opinion of my worth in this discussion based on my skin colour or sexual orientation, for example. Is there a word to describe that 😉

Not judging your worth in this discussion, @muminabun just asking what life experiences may/may not have fed into your opinion.

I'm surprised at your answer, but as I said before people have different experiences. One person not facing discrimination over a given attribute doesn't mean that no one does.

I still think you are wrong, and worryingly dismissive of the prevalence and impact of discrimination for someone who works in HR.

@Muminabun

If you are good, ambitious and hardworking there is little to hold you back. This has been a fact for many years.the equalities act has increased fear and red tape to such a ridiculous degree. If you were a small or medium sized business owner would you hire a candidate with multiple protected characteristics and discrimination claims are uncapped. No bloody way is probably the answer for most and I don’t blame them.

Playing fast and loose with the word 'fact' there.

These links are all really interesting reading.

I'm also very appreciative of everyone elses thoughts on this, especially @Muminabun for taking the time to explain your findings. You can't have discussion and debate without variety of opinions. I love that mumsnet isn't an echo chamber - where we unfriend each other if we don't share opinions, to exist in a happy bubble!

From the whats been said and the What we're doing VISA link, education seams to be such a big element of this. Whilst we form our basic life skills pre school. Our school years are the opportunity to inspire us, to visit social equality, to give us exposure to differences.

Culture feeds off society and the discrimination unfortunately , it's a bit/lot circular

My employer publishes it's social responsibility report every year, which goes into what it's doing for the environment, charitable works and so on, as well as publishing data about staff diversity and so on. There's also a code of conduct for suppliers, though I don't know how they audit it. But we're a large multinational - I can't imagine small companies could insist suppliers comply with certain good practices in the same way, and just won't have the same economic clout. But if big companies publish what they do and expect, then that is a starting point. Though obviously it's edited, because they're not going to make themselves look bad.