Why do people want to debate ending racism?

[spinthebottle]

I am black. I have encountered countless racism in my life, I’ve posted on another thread the things that happen or have happened to me since I was young including...

A security guard following you around a shop
People visibly moving or grabbing their handbags when you enter a crowded space
Being the only black person at a job opportunity and knowing full well you won’t get that job you’re their token black person
Being asked to stand in photos for college/school to show how diverse they are but actually treated like shit
As a child people wouldn’t hold hands with you as they told you you have poo on your hands
Speaking to someone on the phone and then when you meet in person they tell you they’re surprised you are black as you are so well spoken.
Being called very racist terms from primary school
The countless and countless threads on here asking if it’s okay to own a gollywog (it’s not.)
I’ve been asked to wear a more appropriate hairstyle to work when I had my natural hair out.

I’m sure there’s countless other things I could name, what I don’t understand is why people want to debate this. There’s obviously a problem, a very real problem and when this is put out into the open it’s somehow open for debate.

People want to debate about this, they tell me to say exactly what I’m fighting for, and there’s other people that experience this too. Which I am not ignoring I am aware. Why can’t we just acknowledge that this is a problem and change it, I’ll probably regret this thread, but I’m tired of being tired and I’m upset and angry. Trying to explain myself. Stop trying to debate and be part of the change. Please.

I think I am quite lucky. I am bame. No one I know debates ending it.

But they do debate, how to end it. And that debate is different from person to person. Not really based on race.

But then I dont know anyone who is openly racist, so maybe they wouldn't debate that with me.

Yes, it is a very real problem and change is needed. No debate as far as I am concerned.

You are completely right we should all be standing together and working for proper equality.

@Trevasdick Thankyou for your reply. If you look at the threads on Mumsnet there’s quite a few people asking for BAME posters to justify their reasons for protesting and what they’re asking for exactly. Which is quite simply equality, but they’re asking for more and more information and then deciding they actually don’t know enough and haven’t been on the receiving end of enough racism to justify standing up to this.

It is rife on here especially and when you look for it it is there. Not always in plain sight. X

I agree we need change not just debate, and the examples of racism you've experienced are horrible. But isn't debate part of the change? For example, I hadn't really thought about the fact that what many people consider "smart hair" for women is based on white women's hair, until I read threads about it on here. Making people aware of this sort of issue can help tackle unconscious bias.

@HotPenguin I can’t say that I don’t agree with you, but like I say you’ve read it and realised yes this is a problem, I’ve recognised this and I realise it’s not okay. What is there to debate on that issue?

It’s okay to acknowledge that stuff you have previously let slide or never questioned were wrong, absolutely. And believe me I’ve not always spoken up about it, I changed my hairstyle for example. (I used relaxer which burnt my scalp and damaged my hair irreparably). What I’m trying to get across is the posters on here that won’t and don’t listen, they say it’s a ‘debate’ but everything that is said is dismissed.

A healthy debate is okay, but the things I am saying are real and very real. And have been for most of my life, but I’m shut down at every turn, and it’s not just me it’s all the recent threads on this issue.

I am not black. I am mixed race. I absolutely do not get it (why people want to debate ending racism).

I went to a fairly diverse London Primary School a very long time ago. There was racism, tokenism, loads of imperfection. My mixed race family was/is full of imperfections nevertheless I still remember the real shock I felt as a primary school student when I realised racism existed. It just didn't compute and on some fundamental level still doesn't. It seems so insane.

When someone says "Speaking to someone on the phone and then when you meet in person they tell you they’re surprised you are black as you are so well spoken." how can anyone come back with a ridiculous deflection?

I'm sure I have a lot to learn. I just do not get why this and words are failing me. Really, everything I'm reaching for falls apart before I can construct a sentence.

The only thing that's come to me today that seems in any way helpful is "There's none so blind as those who will not see".

Thankyou for your reply. If you look at the threads on Mumsnet there’s quite a few people asking for BAME posters to justify their reasons for protesting and what they’re asking for exactly. Which is quite simply equality, but they’re asking for more and more information and then deciding they actually don’t know enough and haven’t been on the receiving end of enough racism to justify standing up to this.
I havent been on much lately. I was on some threads earlier in the week and got bored of being told I was a defensive white person 🙄. Once because I defended someone who stated they were Chinese, from a 'white ally.

I have noticed on here that there's alot of posters saying they are white and allies, with some veiled racisim against other ethnicities.

But, I was talking about in RL.

I have to say though I have seen lots of posts tonight about the protests getting out of hand and a few photos of police being attacked.

My white father was a police man during the miners strikes. He was severely injured. Those white protestors were hailed as heros for throwing a paving slab at him, which caused him a long life neck problem. He still stayed in the police for over his 30 years.

But it is quite odd that white protestors standing up for themseleves attacking police were heros (i live in ex mining town and its still the perception) for acting as they did.

However, protestors who are bame or protesting as allies of BLM are being told they are out of order.

So to be honest, in the last 30 minutes, I have slightly changed my stance.

Honestly it is exhausting. One side of my family is white and Irish, one is bame. And it is exhausting. In England it feels like I have had it from all sides. 80s, people hated me because i had an Irish twang to my accent. The fact that my family was irish, caused some bullying at work as late as 2011. Then more recently because of the colour of the skin of my cousins.

I feel ashamed and lucky, all at once, that I pass for white most of the year. When I tan people notice more or think I must be Italian/greek/Spanish. Its only when out with cousins that people really acknowledge i am bame.

I answered just thinking about my social circles in real life and probably lying answered too quickly.

No idea where lying came from in the last sentence.

I agree OP, a few things I've read on social media recently make me think some people don't ever want to change their way of thinking or admit things they've said or done in the past might be wrong.

Black friend of mine was renting a house out. Guy called, said it was a Jewish area, were there many Jewish people around? Yes, said black friend. Guy comes to visit. In shock. 'I didn't think you'd be black! ' he said, and walked away. Didn't even view.

One of countless stories my mate told me.

Oh and on here, someone (apparently bame) told people to go out and seek bame friends. Not friends who you like who may happen to be bame.

But specifically because they are bame.

Which made me feel like we were just a quota to fill. But I can see what they were getting at.

The debate is different on all sides.

But it can be exhausting.

Also an addition.

I remember being incredibly annoyed at a Muslim English teacher telling everyone about teb roubles in Ireland and basically making out yet catholics were completely to blame.

However the difference was, when I pointed out his point of view was very one sided, he apologised to me and went off and researched more. Asked me question about my time there.

There was no defensiveness. Just a sincere apology.

Bloody hell managedmis

Here here. And regarding the ‘smart hair’ - I am of Indian origin and have aboriginal Indian hair which is a kind of thinner afro. Most of the women from my background straighten hair chemically as hair straighteners don’t work very well.

A few years ago I stopped as it was damaging and that’s when a white female manager began to systematically racially abuse me for having ‘messy’ hair. Nobody stood up for me - I was disciplined for breaching the dress code and even had other Indian colleagues tell me just to give in as it wasn’t worth it.

The comments were unbearable. I was called dirty, smelly, the managers favourites were encouraged to bully me, and the only thing that made it stop was my getting a promotion out of the area she worked.

It was the kind of bullying I had never experienced before and haven’t experienced since, and I know it was wrong but it has really damaged me as it literally started just because I, an Indian origin woman, decided to show the world my natural hair. I dread to think what must happen on a daily basis to black women - who are discriminated in much worse ways all the time. BLM needs to stop casual / institutional racism in it’s teacks and the only way it can do that is if white people accept there’s a problem with their world view (even if they aren’t themselves racist).