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Need a French speaker to tell me what one word means!

18 replies

Ivegotabigfatwardrobe · 21/05/2020 23:59

Hi, I’m just doing some family history research and I’ve come across a word that I don’t understand.
It’s ‘bourgeois’
In context ‘Jean de Choiseul, bourgeois de Moulins-Engilbert’
I tried googling and it just came up with bourgeoisie!

OP posts:
Fedup21 · 22/05/2020 00:00

Middle class?

Rainallnight · 22/05/2020 00:00

Townsperson? Would that make sense?

VelvetTrews · 22/05/2020 00:02

It means from that place - so Jean de C from the commune Moulins Englibert

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Howmanysleepsnow · 22/05/2020 00:06

Nobleman/ burgher

Ivegotabigfatwardrobe · 22/05/2020 00:08

Thank you!
His son is ‘Claude seigneur d’Arcilly’ but I’m also not sure what ‘seigneur’ is?

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Flamingofolie · 22/05/2020 00:14

Lord

Flamingofolie · 22/05/2020 00:15

Sorry, seigneur is lord

Iseethesilverlining · 22/05/2020 00:26

Depending which century you are looking at, a bourgeois was a town dweller while a seigneur was equivalent to a Lord of the manor, ie untitled owner of a feudal property that had certain noble rights attached.

cabbageking · 22/05/2020 00:29

Someone who owns property, not a commoner.

cabbageking · 22/05/2020 00:34

It means a specific type of land owner. Doesn't mean they were noble.

Ivegotabigfatwardrobe · 22/05/2020 00:44

Ok thanks everyone!
@IseethesilverliningcCentury-wise im looking anywhere from the 1500s to 1200s. There seems to be a lot of marriages between seigneurs of xyz and dames of abc so I suppose even if they weren’t considered noble, they didn’t marry beneath themselves!

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Ivegotabigfatwardrobe · 22/05/2020 00:46

If it makes any difference some of them also have numbers after their names I.e ‘Pierre third of his name of blah blah blah’

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cabbageking · 22/05/2020 00:59

A seigneur owner can be male or female or even a group of people.

cabbageking · 22/05/2020 01:03

They might be the bigwig in their area but equally they might not be.

Fenlandmountainrescue · 22/05/2020 01:36

You made me think of droit de seigneur, I think it is spelled.

corythatwas · 22/05/2020 08:12

A seigneur is a lord, someone who owns a piece of land and has rights of jurisdiction and certain other rights (e.g. rights to labour) over the people who live on it.

A bourgeois (burgher) is not only a town-dweller but a town-dweller who has rights of citizenship and political rights in his town. So basically urban middle class. There will be plenty of townspeople who do not belong to the bourgeoisie- labourers, poor people, people from elsewhere.

corythatwas · 22/05/2020 08:14

The feudal system of seigneurie started out as a military expedient: the king would give a piece of land to a follower or local bigwig, he would then get to profit from it but in return had to provide a set number of soldiers/military equipment/provisions from the army from that land, and would also himself be expected to serve in the army.

Ivegotabigfatwardrobe · 22/05/2020 10:20

That’s really helpful thank you @corythatwas

@Fenlandmountainrescue I’d never heard of that, it’s horrible!

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