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Do you think criminals have a choice

51 replies

FabbyChix · 28/04/2020 19:36

I don’t believe anyone is born with any behaviour problem. The personality only forms from input data. Consider the brain a computer hard drive). Who we are is what we see, hear, feel. As we grow our opinions who we are come from what we have on our drive. Peope don’t know they do things wrong because it’s not there. I know this as my abuser cannot even see what he did it’s not there. I also have bpd and before I was enlightened I’d do stuff and could justify it because that was me. No one is born bad, it’s not possible. Behaviour is only a reaction to a happening and that reaction would be born or what is in the hard drive.

Does anyone agree?

OP posts:
BurneyFanny · 29/04/2020 07:15

And of course if you’re born wealthy you just lobby the government so that your reprehensible behavior remains legal.

iVampire · 29/04/2020 07:32

Nobody has ever settled the nature v nurture debate

I think it’s an oversimplification to assume that people are born as blank tablets

ineedsun · 29/04/2020 08:08

There have been tests done which shows under development of parts of the brain in psychopaths which was reflected in the behavioural traits they possessed.

If it's the studies I'm thinking of, these are also the areas of the brain which are shown to be affected by neglect and abuse in early childhood, so there's still an element of environmental impact causing physical changes to neurology which then obviously have an impact of behaviour.

FabbyChix · 29/04/2020 10:17

Surely we can i only ever choose what we have knowledge of. I don’t Believe criminals know right from wrong they don’t have the necessary part of their personality to even know.

OP posts:
Lllot5 · 29/04/2020 10:22

They absolutely know right from wrong. Children know from a very young age.
They may choose to do the wrong thing for all sorts of reasons, but to imply grown adults don’t know what they’re doing is wrong is making excuses for bad behaviour.

FabbyChix · 29/04/2020 10:24

I have a diagnosed mental illness. It’s been around thirty years. The cause is wrong. If they ever learn the real cause this will prove criminals don’t have a choice. I can prove it’s wrong but finding someone who will listen is just hard.

OP posts:
FabbyChix · 29/04/2020 10:26

I was abused for 7 years. My abuser doesn’t even see what he done because to him
It’s not there. My illness cost me my son because I abused him verbally for a year. That was justified by my disorder. I didn’t not see until six months ago now horrific it was and now bad. I didn’t choose it. You all make the mistake that people have choices they only have choices which are known.

OP posts:
FabbyChix · 29/04/2020 10:29

behaviour isn’t a choice people don’t choose on
Purpose to be bad. That’s the mistake that society makes. I didn’t say to myself I’m abusing my son so he hates me who does that. My life is destroyed by my actions no one chooses to destroy their own life. Ergo it’s not a choice.

OP posts:
ArriettyJones · 29/04/2020 10:29

If you consider the high proportion of prisoners who were in care, endured childhood neglect or abuse, are functionally illiterate or missed substantial amounts of education, I’d say a lot of them have substantial mitigation and it is clearly not a simple matter of free will.

WifOfBif · 29/04/2020 10:30

I work with young adults in care and leaving care. Mental health issues and offending are rife, I have a young man aged 17 who was born in a prison. His parents were drug dealers. A life of neglect, growing up in care, no education or qualifications, anxiety and depression. Guess how he makes his money? He is just one of 30 on my case load. Most of them will follow the same path, they never had any hope from the start.

There will be one or two success stories, but they are few and far between.

KnobwithaK · 29/04/2020 10:31

Depends what you mean by "choice". Many have shit upbringings, MH problems or brain injuries etc which might push them in that direction (or take away the protective factors that others are lucky enough to be born with).. it's rare that they are forced into criminality though.

Lllot5 · 29/04/2020 10:34

Grown up adult people choose their behaviours. It might be a choice that comes from a bad, neglectful, abusive background. But it’s a choice. To say anything else absolves all of us from any responsibility.

ArriettyJones · 29/04/2020 10:36

Grown up adult people choose their behaviours. It might be a choice that comes from a bad, neglectful, abusive background. But it’s a choice. To say anything else absolves all of us from any responsibility.

I think there’s a middle ground where you can acknowledge the psychological and neurological effects of early trauma, and lack of opportunities, while at the same time acknowledging that some people overcome the same without committing crime.

Springersrock · 29/04/2020 10:42

I don’t think it’s as simple as someone choosing whether or not to commit a crime

DH and I used to be foster carers. We mainly looked after teens.

Most of the young people we looked after were or had been in trouble with the police - in and out of YOI, addict parents, sofa surfing, etc.

All had issues with disordered attachments, vulnerable to abusive adults, lack of positive role models, let down by children’s services and other agencies involved in their care.

We had one young person come to us at 16. They had been on (what was then) the child protection register since they were 18 months old. Both parents were heroin addicts, YP was born a heroin addicted baby, years and years of neglect and abuse followed. YP was finally removed when Mum went to prison for dealing heroin.

Yes, YP ‘chose’ to go out shop lifting, take drugs and behave violently, but when that kind of behaviour is all they’ve ever know, it’s pretty easy to see why.

lastqueenofscotland · 29/04/2020 10:59

Some family friends in the US adopted an older child who had grown up in a VERY deprived area. The only people he saw with nice cars/clothes etc were dealers or gang leaders. He literally never met a doctor, or a lawyer. There were so little opportunities he hardly knew anyone in employment.

He’s now 21 at uni and smashing it but this is an opportunity that would never have been open to him otherwise.

Elieza · 29/04/2020 11:02

”I have a diagnosed mental illness. It’s been around thirty years. The cause is wrong. If they ever learn the real cause this will prove criminals don’t have a choice”.

OP I dont understand what you mean? What do you mean about the cause being wrong?

And what does “if THEY ever learn the real cause” mean? Who are ‘they’? Do you mean your abuser?

Are you trying to say he is abusive because you feel he was born with a brain problem so it’s not his fault he has no remorse and a lack of understanding for the terrible things he has done? Because that is a real thing that science has proved with scans of prisoners brains. However it doesn’t get him off the hook as he should know he was breaking the law and that’s a bad thing to do.

WhoWants2Know · 29/04/2020 11:15

A large proportion of prisoners (I believe more than half) have suffered suffered a traumatic head injury at some point. This can cause massive behaviour changes and loss of impulse control that can certainly lead to crime or violence without robust support in place.

Madein1995 · 29/04/2020 11:21

Saying that 'we all know right and wrong from childhood' is completely narrow sighed and an indication of a comfortable and sheltered life, IMO. No, not everyone DOES know right from wrong. We get those ideas from our parents, from those around us, and they're cemented very early in our lives. By the time a child starts school aged 5 their life view and morals are already pretty set, their values are ingrained, and it takes a lot of hard slog to untangle those beliefs. If you look at your own beliefs and values, guaranteed that many of those can be traced back to your childhood
Take James Bulgers killers. They were brought up in the most horrific circumstances, where violence, aggression and abuse were commonplace and acceptable. Is it any wonder that became their normal?
Its easy to say 'oh but they KNOW'. They dont. I experienced horrific emotuonal and physical abuse as a child. I knew that i didnt like it - but I never knew that it was wrong or different or that it wasnt normal, until watching a safeguarding video on training age 21. As children, our normal becomes normal. And it is not an excuse. As an adult, it is your responsibility to untangle and change those values and beliefs. It is what i do for my job, woking with offenders. It goes some way to explaining.

And let's stop with the 'criminals' please, as though they're a different person altogether. They've committed a crime. They are still a son, a employee, a partner, a friend, a member of the public, a consumer ... their offending behaviour is a part of them, it is not a part of them. I'm overweight. I have brown hair. I'm Welsh. I have blue eyes. No one would dream of making my whole personality as being 'blue eyes'. No one would dare say 'all brown haired people are x'. So why is it different with offenders?
They are people, just like we are. Very few are mass murderers. Most people i work with aren't bad lads - they're a bit daft, they've made a few silly or bad decisions, but they're not bad. They need to develop thinking skills, impulse control and emotional recognition for the most part, but they are just like us. Any one of us could become an offender (let's not use criminal)

In my area, 'low level' crime is seen as acceptable particularly driving offences.

I don't think anyone is born bad. I think it is down to nurture. But let's remember that 2 children within the same faily will have different experiences of the same event. Say Paul and Dave, brought up in chaos. Paul is the eldest so is used to caring for his sibling from a young age. He is used to having to be responsible - ensuring there's clean clothes and food around. His formative years are relatively miserable and as a result he is determined that when he gets older he will make a life better for himself. He leaves school age 16 and gets a job right away; from having nothing he is determined to save up and keep his money. Having seen destruction that substances cause he is concious not to take them. He strives to be better.
Dave is born and protected by Paul, who swoops him and protects him from everything - even his own consequences. His homework etc is done for him and Paul tries to teach him the 'right ' way. His parents lifestyle looks fun and attractive and forbidden, as Paul tries to ban him from mixing with drug users etc. Paul leaves home when Dave is 15, and he starts getting involved with his parents chaos. He sees Paul saving and being miserable and thinks the other way looks much more fun and carefree. He starts using and doesn't have the desire to change.

Now that eg is obviously v.v. simplistic but goes some way to demonstrating the different reasons for behaviour etc. Of course personality has something to do with it.

I don't think things like poverty etc are a excuse - they are however a reason and need to be treated with more consideration than saying 'well it's just an excuse'. A large part of my role is getting people to think of different options. The desire to change has to be there. ERvery 30 people who come through - i say aound 5 actually are willing and READY to change.
Because not offending isn't a simple process. First, it's tyour natutal response. Your mates keep offering you 'jobs' and you live in an area where crime is rife. You try to do the right thing and it's so fucking hard for seemingly little reward. Then you've all the internal stuff - the anger management, temper control, 'fixing my own problems'. Proper , real change, requires a complete life overhaul which isn't easy to do. In fact it's bloody hard.

Say you're someone trying not to offend. Its been 3 weeks since your UC claim and god knows how long to go. You're unemployed; looking for work but so is half the country and the jobs that are available cost too much in travel costs to be worth it. Your family is poor; youve barely ejough money for food let alone for clothes for the kids. Food banks are available but you're a MAN - 'Meant to look after your family' - and what will others think if you use that? Probation is on at you. Your mate offers you a 'driviing job'. Is defitinitely not legal and youe no licence anyway. If youre caught youll get done. Your mate offers you 700quid for the job.

It's easy for us to see the alternatives. Actually doing those, at the time, with pressures going on, with emotions etc in the way , is not easy at all.

It's very easy yo see that many of the narrow minded, black and white thinking on here, comes from posters who haven't actually worked with offenders and have never been in a position themselves. Their middle class bubble is evident.

Of course offenders have choice. Saying otherwise denies them the opportunity to change, infantiles them and is just downright ridiculous. Anyone can change, i truly believe that. Change is NOT a straightforward process however.

Lllot5 · 29/04/2020 11:50

So your example of some body waiting for their universal credit payment. They get offered an illegal job paying £700 I understand the temptation to do the job of course I do. But they know it’s illegal they know right from wrong they choose to do wrong. Understandable but still a choice to do the illegal wrong thing.

x2boys · 29/04/2020 11:56

It's about personal responsibility too ,my dh had a somewhat chequered youth and got involved with drugs ( long before I met him) he was imprisoned for a time ,he acknowledges that it was absolutely his fault,but he also thinks it made him grow up and change his life

Elisheva · 29/04/2020 12:05

You seem very confident that people ‘know’ right from wrong, when right and wrong are not absolutes. In some houses it is ‘wrong’ to swear, in other houses it is not.
Many people are judging from a perspective of privilege and intelligence, and assuming that everyone thinks in the same way they do. The vast, vast majority of offenders have poor literacy and language abilities. This can profoundly impact their ability to understand cause and effect, to weigh up the consequences of their actions, to plan and to predict. Trauma in utero or in early life can affect the way that the brain develops and that cannot be reversed. It is far more complicated than simply nature vs nurture.

BurneyFanny · 29/04/2020 13:04

Right and wrong are relative concepts anyway. Selling small amounts of cannabis is illegal. Avoiding tax on a massive scale isn’t. Guess which one does more harm to society.

Madein1995 · 29/04/2020 15:50

Lllot agree, in that situation in a choice and we always present it to service users as such. There is always a choice. Whether that choice involves going cap in hand to a food bank, or going through withdrawal from substances, or losing face in an argument - it is still a choice. Saying 'but its a choice' to them isn't helpful. Instead its looking at the potential options available and the consequences of each one. All we can do is point out the consequences and the discrepancy between that and their goal (for eg, consequence is going to prison which long term means unable to provide for family anyway). It's up to them to put this stuff nto practice. Quite often emotions get in the way (as they do for all of us!)

Right and wrong are completely relative, as someone said earlier. Is murder always wrong - in ALL cases, including DV cases? Is violence ALWAYS wrong? Is theft ALWAYS wrong?
Those things are against the law - which can make things tricky. Hence why when working with offenders we focus on the negative consequence of their actions not just on the victim, but on them and their goals. If we were bleating 'but its illegal, think of society' all day long there would be no incentive to change.

Lllot5 · 29/04/2020 17:31

I agree there are mitigating circumstances. A starving child versus shoplifting, I would shoplift, but with the knowledge that it’s wrong.
Some things just are.

WineLover1234 · 29/04/2020 17:33

Definitely a choice! A lot of it is how you are raised! And if you choose to get in a bad crowd, you will make bad choices! Guaranteed