A question for musicians......

[Hellvelyn]

I love classical music and go to live concerts whenever I have the opportunity (sadly not at the moment)
I played the flute for years, including in a couple of school orchestras. Timing was something that never came naturally. I know how to read music, time signatures etc but really struggled to put it into practice and my sight reading was awful.
My question to you is - when you have a piece of music in front of you, is it like reading a book? Do you look at the pattern of notes and rests and just "know" how it should sound and when is the right time to start playing when part of an orchestra? Or are you aware that you are counting and consciously working out what to play? I hope this makes sense. I have such admiration when I see musicians in action (more so because I found it so difficult myself) and have often wondered how you do it.

I learnt to play recorder when I was 6, so the age when most people learn to read. So I can read treble clef music as if I am reading and it does make the tune in my head.
I play folk music (often by ear) and classical music (from notes) so think I have the best of both worlds.
As to timing, folk music is very easy, fast, but easy rhythms and I don't need to count. Some of the harder classical stuff especially to start with I might have to work out the timing.

That comes with practice. The more immersed you are, ie. conservatory-style training, where you have musicianship, harmony, various ensemble work practice, etc, the easier it becomes. You also lose the skill if you don’t use it - like foreign languages you learned in high schools and no longer practice. Hope that helps.

I read music like a book and I know when to come in. I dont really count, except possibly the end note to make sure it's long enough!

Do you also have problems eg reading from a black/whiteboard? If so this is a symptom of dyslexia. Just a thought.

Actually, I do count if I'm playing alone but it's second nature so I don't realise I'm counting. If I'm in an orchestra/choir I heavily rely on the conductor.

I play the flute too - learning as an adult which is not easy but I love it. Great question! I do think that if you learn as a child then the timing does become instinctive. I thought I had made a big step when I looked at a piece of music and heard it in my head - I was amazed! Alas hasn’t happened since.

I’m learning a new instrument now as something to do in lockdown. I was never particularly high standard (grade 4) but I was pleasantly surprised that sight reading same have quite quickly. I’ve found playing familiar pieces has helped me get my eye in again!

I’m a music teacher and also do lots of musical directing/conducting and semi-professional playing.I play flute and piano. I read music as if it’s normal reading and am always reading a bar or ahead of what I’m playing as you have to anticipate what’s coming next. Pop/musical theatre type stuff on piano that’s usually in 4 beats in the bar and follows more standard patterns I can usually just sit down and play cold (I have several times sightread an entire show cover to cover when I’ve been depping in last minute for a friend who can’t do a rehearsal). Sondheim, West Side Story or the Rite of Spring? That would take a bit more thought in orchestras you rely more on the conductor-you have bars rest that you have to count and you play much less so it’s easier to get lost (on woodwind or brass certainly)

Usually yes, unless it's a particularly unusual or complicated piece of music.

If you become specialised in a particular era or genre of music then you can very often second guess how the next bar is going to go, if it's typical of that era. I'm usually right, and every time I've been wrong I've thought well oooh, this composer is clever.

This is really interesting. I don't think I'm dyslexic and reading/writing has always come quite naturally to me. I always feel like I know the practicalities of playing the flute and can make a nice sound (I think) and can read music like I'm doing maths (I know what note I'm looking at, its value etc) but there feels like something linking the two skills is missing. Doesn't stop me loving music though, and makes me really appreciate the skill of the performers.

Yes, it's like reading for me, in that I'm "fluent" - the meaning of the music just goes straight in and I'm not conscious of the decoding/blending process (to use a phonics analogy). There's no real conscious thought there - it really is a natural as reading for me. Likewise, I often find myself scanning a piece of music (as you would a page of text) or, as Whattodo said, reading a bar ahead of what I'm actually playing. This is actually a vital skill for a musician, anyway - you need to know what's coming and plan for things like dynamic changes, page turns, etc. So I guess I sort of have three things going on in my head at once - the music I'm actually playing, what I'm reading ahead to and thinking about, and then anything to do with the performance (phrasing, tuning, alternative fingerings, listening to other people in an ensemble, etc).

It sounds complicated, but I guess it's not any more so than driving a car - as a beginner, you're thinking "mirror-signal-manoeuvre ... the engine sounds a bit strained, I'd better change up ... clutch down, shift, oops that's fifth, not third..." all the time, but after a while you handle the car more instinctively and can devote more brain space to looking and planning ahead on the road.

I learned to read music very young, so I can't remember not being able to read it (just as I can't remember not being able to read print). So for me, it's almost like another language. When I was a bit older, did have to spend some time learning the "grammar" properly (hello grade 5 theory!) but that's separate from fluency in reading, for me. It is something you get better at with practice, and you can also lose skills if you don't practise them: I did A-level music, so at one point I was good at score reading (where you have to read and play four lines of music at once, often in different clefs). I'm pretty rusty at that now! But I don't think I'll ever lose my baseline ability to read one or two lines of music fluently (short of getting dementia ).

I've just re-read you OP and wanted to say: reading is separate from performance, which is also separate from understanding and appreciating music. So I can read a score easily, but that doesn't mean that I'll be able to sight-read it easily! And playing in an orchestra (as you mentioned) is even more challenging - woodwind parts often have several bars of rests, so you need to keep counting to know where you are relative to the rest of the orchestra (although there will sometimes be cues in the parts to help). Listening to a recording of the piece and following your part so you can see how it fits in is really helpful, and can help with that instinctive sense of when to play (if I've understood your question correctly?) But what really comes through is how much you love music, and that is something that will always be with you no matter how fluent your sight-reading is!

That’s a great question op - I’m similar to you I have to decode carefully...or cheat by listening on YouTube while looking at the music before I do it without.

Reading and knowing what to do with regard timing is something I’d love to be fluent in.

Depends on the composer, really. I started singing when my arthritis flared and despite never having sung classical before and having largely learned everything I play by ear, some pieces were easy - for example, pretty much anything by Purcell and I can nail the long phrases first time, as the shapes make absolute sense vocally. Elgar makes sense if I frame it as 'cinematic music' in my head. Some Bach can be a right pig, though glares in Tenor at St Matthew's Passion particularly at the rehearsal stage, as I'm not keen on 'we'll sing this bar/three and two thirds of a bar without any context about ten thousand times until nobody knows what we're doing it for again'. Especially when those ten thousand repetitions would have been unnecessary had the Baritone line been sung, as it would have been clear where to place them and could have been done in five minutes.

I don't count because of learning by ear in the first place and playing quite a few instruments, so I'm used to having to drop into any part to follow what's going on. And I am really good at winging it when music falls down, the lights fail, strings break and equipment self destructs, rather than stopping because I have to have the dots.

I taught myself the theory much later on. But it's really experience and practice that makes you 'just know' what something is, whether it's dots, rhythm, key or progressions.

Yes @yoohooits me. You sound just the same as me. I wonder whether this skill comes "naturally" or whether anyone can do it with lots of practice. To those of you who know how the music sounds without conscious decoding, was there a time when you remember not being able to do this? I find it fascinating. I'm sure there must be research done on this. Music teachers - are there pupils who just seem to "get it" I'm enjoying this discussion. A nice diversion from all the other stuff going on.

Yes, I learned to read music when I learned to read. At university and when teaching and conducting regularly I could read an orchestral score and hear it in my head. I couldn't manage that now, but could do the same with a piano score.

The analogy with reading is very relevant. I feel like I've learnt all the letters of the alphabet (notes on the score), absolutely love listening to stories (musical performances) but when I look at the letters on the page they are all jumbled into strange groups and in no way represent the story I really love. If I slow down to unjumble (is that a word?) the groups of letters then the story is disjointed without any flow.

For me, music is partly visual - I love the because they really capture the visual aspects of musical scores

To those of you who know how the music sounds without conscious decoding, was there a time when you remember not being able to do this? I find it fascinating. I'm sure there must be research done on this. Music teachers - are there pupils who just seem to "get it"

I remember very clearly struggling with learning to play piano pieces when I was little, and I always say to the pupils that I teach that with the piano particularly there just comes a click and then co-ordination and quick reading comes naturally.

It’s interesting as I play the organ every now and again, played it in chapel at a school I worked in and at Various local churches occasionally. I’ve never learnt the organ properly and for the organ instead of reading two lines of music only, one each for right and left hand, you read an extra line for the feet as well so three lines of music at once

When I attempt to play the organ with feet it is like putting me right back to the beginning of being able to play an instrument, and it’s horrible I don’t have the unconscious competence that I have with the piano, I have to think about every single note and chord change and it makes my brain explode.

And yes there are some children who just get it straightaway - and they are so easy to teach

@mackerella I absolutely love those line rider clips. So clever! They blew my mind a bit the first couple of times but then I really got into it. Am I right in thinking that each different rider is a different instrumental part? Maybe I'm trying to over analyse! I love all the different shapes made by the music. Thanks for a great link.

I think learning piano as your first instrument helps a lot with this, as there's so much more going on than with flute music. DD learnt piano followed by clarinet, but the clarinet took so little effort at the beginning because all the hard learning to read music, understanding harmony, co-ordination of all four limbs had already taken place with the piano. She literally just had to learn the embouchure, the fingerings and develop her lungs and breathing. She plays orchestral percussion too now, and just sight-reads through every concert (decent school orchestra, not LSO ).
Maybe try some piano to help?

I used to play the recorder and the piano as a kid, and I'm all right with the treble clef, but have never got to grips with the bass clef properly. I've now taken up bass guitar, and although I'm reasonably musical, I find that it is much easier to learn something if I listen to it and read along with it a few times first.

Perhaps a sense of rhythm is something you are either born with, or can learn with practice.

I don't think that rhythm can necessarily be picked up very easily with classical music anyway, so maybe start listening to more modern stuff. Try Motown. You need to get into the groove, OP!