Paying the cleaner

[lboogy]

Obviously the cleaner can't come and clean. Oh how I miss her so. Anyway, I've paid her for each week she couldn't come. Do I just pay her for 3 months in advance or keep paying each week?

I would ask her but I think she's a little shy to ask directly

We've been paying ours full pay every 2 weeks. I've told her after 8 weeks we will need to drop to 50%. ( If I can I'll stretch that to 10) I dont want to cut her off completely.

She texted me yesterday saying when this was over she would do us a deep clean and not charge for it which I've accepted as I suspect she does not want to feel like shes taking something for nothing.

Yes shes a luxury and I'd be the first to admit that. I do miss her though.

I'm still paying mine weekly by bank transfer as I normally do as DH and I are still being paid (lecturers).Whether she can claim back 80% from the government or not, she still has to live between March and June which is pretty impossible with no money coming in. Also, I assumed that other self employed and furloughed people might not be able to pay anymore so it felt only right to continue paying whilst we are not financially affected.

(She does text and say thanks!)

There's always this weird thing about cleaners.

The reality is that you're paying them for a service and while they're not technically employees, they turn up at the same time every day/week and there's a formal or informal contract in place that governs this. So treating them as employees doesn't seen unreasonable. Come to think of it, I think technically the government might consider them employees too on some level as when we had a long-term nanny who only worked 8 hours a week, we were told she counted as an employee and we needed to treat her as such.

The point is that in the same way we're all outraged when big companies are just firing their staff without giving them any support, we should be outraged when people just ditch their cleaners and gardeners and the like. For some companies, they can afford to do more and choose not to. For others, they genuinely can't afford it because their own business has tanked and when we see that they are at least trying we're more sympathetic (eg, companies that refuse to even attempt to furlough their staff vs those who may not survive but are trying to furlough for as long as possible).

Similarly, while I'm not sure I'd get my cleaner to come in, I actually think that done appropriately it's not actually the worst thing ever. But as the employer, it would be up to you to ensure that this was safe - so provision of PPE, processes in place to manage social distancing etc.

But then, I'm always surprised by people who don't give their cleaners any holiday/sick pay so perhaps I'm not the norm on here.

My cleaner doesn't want to work at the moment so I haven't paid her as its her choice and I feel we have a large enough house that we don't need to cross paths when she comes. I am now finding a new cleaner as I cant cope any longer. I don't have time to work, do childcare and clean!

Will happily have my cleaner back when she is ready, but from the sounds of some people on this thread she wont want to come back. C'est la vie.

Hmmm, it’s difficult. I have been paying mine because I feel sorry for her, but our income has halved, I’m having to do all the cleaning while working from home full time and dealing with the home schooling, and for the last 5 months our cleaner has not actually been turning up and has been sending random friends in her place. We were getting to the point where we needed to make a change anyway, so I think it’s time to get the keys back and call it a day.
My cleaner is not my employee - she calls the shots as to when she turns up, (even, as it turns out, as to who turns up) and what she does in the time I am paying for. She could and did cancel at a moment’s notice, and if she sent me a text saying she would never be coming again, there’d be nothing I could do about it. She works for as many other people as she wants. I paid her as a goodwill gesture, not because I thought she was entitled to it. I’m fully prepared for her not to want to come back to me if I don’t pay her from this point, but even if I was happy with her service that would be fine. That’s the nature of the relationship.

My cleaner is still coming to my house.
We keep our distance.
She wears gloves and a mask.
I keep out of her way.
She is very grateful as she isn't being paid by people who don't want her at the moment.
It's her only income.
My dog walker hasn't been in touch though. I was happy for her to continue but... nothing.
Which is fine as I WFH at the moment so I can take the dog out for a nice walk every day.

I always find it entertaining on these threads that 90% say they're still paying their cleaners, but 90% of cleaners say their clients aren't paying them. (Figures made up, obviously, but it has that feel about it.)

Anyway, my cleaners aren't coming, and I'm not paying them. In fairness, if I had a marvel of a reliable cleaner I would have done, but such people are like hen's teeth around here.

After several flaky individuals, I am now on a new start-up company that try hard, but are obviously finding themselves employing similarly flaky cleaners, so I barely ever have the same one.

If that sounds bitchy, then believe me, I have bent over backwards to try and retain any decent cleaners I've had in the past - both financially and with flexibility - but the ones I've had for the last few years certainly wouldn't inspire me to pay them for doing nothing!

BlingLoving - I think you need to be a bit careful about treating people as employees in some ways and self-employed in others. You don't want to risk the relationship being construed as employment if you haven't been complying with all of your obligations as an employer. It'd also have implications for the cleaner and how they pay NI etc. I woud have thought that most cleaners who are doing 2/3 hours a week for 10 or so clients would rather be self-employed. I also wouldn't think it worth the hassle to be an employer in that situation.

I think part of the reason that people are upset with employers firing people in the current situation is that they can use furlough instead. Self-employed people have an equivalent option if they are not working at the moment (with the problem of the delay in payment of course) so asking the cleaner not to come is not the equivalent of firing an employee.

I still don't understand how people who are paying expect it to work with the Govt scheme or whether they're assuming that there won't be a claim.

I still don't understand how people who are paying expect it to work with the Govt scheme or whether they're assuming that there won't be a claim.

I thought I’d answered all your questions further up the thread.

Yes you did say it didn't bother you, I was wondering about people more generally but I suppose also how you expect the situation to play out with the Govt scheme.

A PP suggested that hers was working as a 'voucher scheme' so she pays now (and the cleaner can pay her bills) for cleaning that will be done at a later date, presumably once the cleaner has got the the govt grant.

If people pay now, without expecting anything in return, are you essentially trying to put her in a position where she doesn't have to claim the govt money (so saving the tax payer money rather than benefitting her) or are you seeing it as a way for her to get a bonus? I guess you might also be assuming she's not eligible.

I already said, I am paying her what I’d pay normally and she can do whatever she thinks is appropriate regarding the government scheme. I’m expecting a long delay in any money getting to self employed people and she has bills now. She will probably offer to do an extra clean or two for free but I’m not expecting any quid pro quo for the money I’m paying now, and to be honest the house is getting a very thorough clean right now.

Just for balance- we are not paying our cleaner. We managed to give her two weeks extra last time she came, but she won't accept more. When she comes back and this is all over we will find a way to give her extra the first week back on the grounds that it is 'extra dirty' which to be fair is very likely to be true!

I'm a cleaner. I dont think I will qualify for the government help. Ive applied for UC. A few clients paid me the 1st week, though I didn't go. I'm not going to any clients and havent done since the lockdown begun. 1 client is still paying me. I'm not thinking of ditching any because they've not paid me.

I think a few people may want me to do a few extra hours once I go back. So I'm trying to hang on, though I'm lucky that my adult Son is in a position to help me out financially if need be.

Roarfeckinroar
Can I please ask, where are you going while your cleaner is at yours?
I would love my cleaner to still be coming as I am disabled and can not do it myself but other than food shopping I have no where 'essential' to be and certainly can't and do t want to drag that out for 2-3 hours
(I am paying my cleaner 50% which was more than she was expecting and I had to really push her to take it!!)

When I’ve been unwell I hide away in my bedroom and the cleaner does the rest of the house

I’m not paying mine - I did for a couple of weeks when we had suspected Covid as it was our fault she couldn’t work but since then she has been unable to come due to childcare so I stopped the standing order until she can come back

I've never been self employed, nor worked for HMRC nor am I an accountant, so this is a genuine question.

On a lot of threads, people saying "If they've not been paying their tax / declaring interest then I've no sympathy for them anyway", but what I'm wondering is - If people aren't earning the personal allowance (which I believe is about £12k now?), then surely they don't have to pay tax on their income ? In this discussion, I'd have thought a lot of people who have have a dozen private cleaning jobs would fall into that 'not earning enough to pay tax' category, won't they?

I imagine people are referring to the fact a lot of cleaners do it as cash in hand work and don’t declare to benefits office

@BackforGood I would have thought they do earn enough - my cleaner gets £12 an hour, works 5 days a week and as far as I am aware does at least 8 hours a day (this is a conservative estimate because I understand she does 8 hours cleaning and then childcare three days a week). Assuming she works only 40 weeks of the year she is still on £19,200 (tax free is she is not declaring this).

The more I am thinking about it I don't think people can have it both ways - i.e. not pay tax but expect to be provided with a safety net (either directly by the people they work for (who are presumably paying out of their post tax salary) or the government. We really need to move more towards a French system where we can buy vouchers (that include the paid National Insurance) to give to people providing services such as cleaning, childcare etc etc and in turn the value of the vouchers does not disappear when it comes to declaring income for tax.

I think I am right in saying you have to fill in a tax return if you get £1K self-employed. You also need to pay NI unless you are below a very low threshold.

I do agree about having no sympathy for folk not paying tax when they earn enough, and not having sympathy for folk claiming benefits but then working on the side, but I can't help but think a lot of cleaners only work 2 - 4 hours a day doing cleaning, which - even at £12 an hour (going rate here seems to be £10 an hour) would still bring you in under the £12k personal allowance.

Many will not have been able to claim benefits as the household income means they wouldn't qualify, but will be using the money from a couple of hours cleaning a day to boost the family income - pay for the treats or a holiday or whatever. So who 'ought' they have been declaring £100 - £200 a week to ?

Along similar lines, what about dog walkers? Can they work? It clearly does clash with the "being outside" bit, but could easily collect dogs with no contact and cant work from home. Less clear cut than cleaners I think.

Our dog walker explained her insurance was invalid during lockdown so couldn't continue

But you're still supposed to register with HMRC and do the tax return BackForGood, unless you earn less than £1K www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who-must-send-a-tax-return and pay NI unless your income is below around £6500 www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/tax-and-national-insurance-when-youre-self-employed

Of course you do get your personal allowance so you won't pay any/much tax in the kind of arrangement you suggest.

@HappyTeacher75
I'm a self employed dog walker. We now collect dogs remotely - when we arrive, I telephone, dog is released into the garden and I grab using my own lead. I have a mobile hand washing station with soap and water in the Doggy Funbus so my hands are clean between every household, I'm not spreading it between gate latches! We are still walking dogs for a small number of key workers and people who are flat out working from home, but we've lost over 80% of our usual income. About 5% of our customers have offered to pay in full even though they don't want us to come. Another 20% have offered to pay a retainer.

The 80% self employed grant referred to upthread will not be sent until mid June, and will be based on our average earnings over the three previous tax years. If you haven't been going very long yet, or had a dreadful year or two, you're not going to be getting very much... I had health problems which severely impacted one of those years and moderately impacted another, so I'm not expecting a huge amount. The grant will be taxable btw, as part of the income for 2020-2021.

@rottiemum88

Sorry to hear your walker's insurance is apparently no longer valid. I double checked with mine and it's fine! As long as we carry out our work in accordance with social distancing and the very highest hygiene standards, which of course we're doing. My own are actually higher than those suggested on the relevant home office document.

If your self employed cleaner has completed a tax return and paid tax on their income, they will be getting 80% of their income right now.

I am not sure I would reward a “cash in hand cleaner”.