* Help with behaviour of a 4 year old*

[Daisy2310]

Hi All,

I am looking for some non judgemental advice. I am new to this website so hopefully this post will be ok. My 4 year old has always had a short fuse. Of late, he has been throwing things and hitting children at Pre School. He doesnt listen to his teachers or us. He just wants to do what he wants to do. He says "if you wont let me have this, I will break this" etc. We have reward charts, social stories, naughty step etc. The SEN teachers say they see no signs of Autism or ADHD. He knows hes doing wrong and it seems like its defiance and inability to control his emotions- in particular anger, when he cant do stuff he wants. I am at my witts end. The last 3 weeks have been particularly bad. Any advice would be appreciated. We are very involved and devoted partents and willing to do whatever it takes. Thank you for any help you can give me- or just if you are going through the same, so I dont feel like a awful parent and its all my fault....

4 can be a difficult age. It sounds like you’re doing what you can already. Like everything with kids, it’s probably just a phase and he will come through it.

Just keep being consistent and enforcing boundaries.

Let him know the rules and natural consequences beforehand so he knows what to expect.

Could you give an example of something he has done recently and how it was handled?

How does he respond to star charts? Is he motivated by praise?

While it's hard to comment from a distance, I would say that SEN teachers are not trained in spotting signs of disorders, particularly if they present atypically. ASD can be tricky to spot, and is something I might be thinking about. Could anxiety be a factor?

Is there anything else going on in his life that might be contributing (like a divorce, recent move or death if a grandparent)?

I would suggest trying to learn some breathing exercises together to help him calm down and to practice going to a safe place (in the home or classroom) when his anger is too much.

Your post makes me concerned that the teachers have decided this is bad behaviour rather than a child needing extra support. All behaviours have a function, and you need to work out the function of his. Do incidents occur at a particular time of day, or lesson, or with a particular adult?

Have a look at Ross Greene's book 'The Explosive Child' and his website 'Lives in the Balance'

All behaviour is communication.

He doesnt listen to his teachers or us. He just wants to do what he wants to do
defiance and inability to control his emotions- in particular anger, when he cant do stuff he wants

I'd still ask for this to be investigated by more than a teacher, even SEN teachers get things wrong, he may have an atypical presentation of a condition, they are not qualified to diagnose, nor to say who has nor doesn't have AN based on their observations.

See your GP and ask for a referral, it's a very long very slow process so best to start the ball rolling now. For example it could be caused by slow processing i.e. he doesn't understand what he's being asked, or executive function difficulties, that's when he knows what you want him to do but he can't plan the steps in the task to achieve that.
Also look up PDA strategies and see if any of them help, it's possible he may be demand-avoidant.

OR, none of the above may apply.

No-one apart from a specialist team usually Paed, Ed Psych, SLT and OT can definitely say one way or another, so your best bet is to ask for diagnosis, if he has a specific condition it will be diagnosed and if he hasn't then you'll know.

Hi,
Thank you for your reply.
My example is going to sounnd so trivial. He wanted a chocolate cake- which he sometimes gets as a treat, if he has had a good day at pre school (we mix up treats- not always food). He wasnt good at pre school, so we said he cant have one, but tomorrow is a new day and he can try again. He flipped out. Took off his seat belt in the car, and I pulled over- he ran from back to front as I ran round outside of car and wouldnt get back i his belt. I eventually got him in his belt (after 10 mins) He then said he would "hit me, if I didnt get him a cake" when I was driving. I talked calmly to him about why that was naughty and wouldnt get him a cake. This continued when we got home, hitting me, throwing things. I remained calm and eventually just cuddled him until he was calm (worried hes going to hurt himself or me). Once he calmed down, i didnt give him any treat or reward and found a way to distract him. Its very upetting for us and im sure its not great for him. Its just relentless.

PS theres nothing going on, he has literally such a lovely life. His Fish did pass away a few weeks ago, but he isnt mentioning it or anyting...

As PP said SEN teachers arent trained to diagnose and asd presents differently in every single person. Try reading how to talk so kids will listen - theres one for little kids. Pick your battles. Agree with oh which battles you will pick.

If none of the above works then go to the gp.

Crossposted with Stompy

What's he like with transitions, that's changing from one activity to another. If he has difficulty doing that, it's another thing to flag up with the GP.

He is also full time in a pre school setting and I wonder whether its too much for him and he gets tired. He was very tired yesterday when I picked him up and the above example occured

How is he acting in preschool.
My nearly 4yo is being a bit like this. Pushing the boundaries and being a bit of a pain really.
I think they have a bit of a hormone surge and a development leap at this age. So he probably just needs you to keep enforcing the boundaries but also give lots of hugs and try to understand he still doesn't really get consequences if they happen more than an hour after the fact.
So for instance he just thinks that he now gets cake after preschool. He can't link it to Good and bad behavior yet.
Distraction from the game of climbing about in the car.
Eg just change the subject oh look what I can see down here a spider/caterpillar/ whatever he's interested in and point at the floor out of sight so he has to come over to see. Then make a game of getting in his seat. Such as 'oh who is really good at getting in their seatbelt. Can you do it? Do you put the straps round your teddy?'
I too am guilty of ending up frustrated and shouting.
I'm no expert of course so only you know if there are other issues at play.

Your example is not at all petty and provides a good description. It sounds very hard for you.

I agree that tiredness sounds like it could be a factor. It is likely he is using up his store of self-control while at preschool, meaning that he is easily overwhelmed by his feelings when picked up. I think cuddling him until he is calm is excellent parenting - other people will tell you to be harsh and give punishments, but kids don't act like this for no reason.

One thing that might help is making sure rewards are set over smaller periods - looking a treat for a day probably feels like forever to a 4 year old. Small rewards to gain several times a day may be better (something like getting a sticker for each section of the day where he hasn't got or run away - it needs to be really specific). It would be good to find a teacher who is positive towards him and get them to tell you, in front of him, the things he has managed (so, even if he hit someone at lunchtime, that doesn't mean that him sitting nicely in the afternoon shouldn't be praised).

Are you able to shorten days at preschool? If you are, I would be tempted to. 4 is very little and some kids aren't ready for full days.

Like the pp I wonder if transitions (ie moving from place to place, or activity to activity) are a time things are difficult? If they are, you can help by doing things in a clear routine and talking through what will happen in simple language first.

I also wondered if he is effected by his environment? For instance, does he struggle more when it is noisy and chaotic?

Does any pf this sound like your son Daisy ?

www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/social-care/disabilities/docs/young-people/Making%20Sense%20of%20Sensory%20Behaviour.pdf?

DS has a diagnosis of ASD. His school don't see the signs of it because he masks well... then explodes when he gets home. Same back in the days of nursery too. I sought the diagnosis when he was 7 and his moods and meltdowns escalated because of SATs, but he always had been very "tantrumy" and struggled with the world not psychically meeting his perfectionist demands.

What are his social skills like? With adults? With peers? Does he sound old or young compared to his peers.

Are there cycles of timing? Transitions? Hunger? Tiredness? Across the term? (We get a sweet spot weeks 2-3 when the term is fresh and settled. It can take him time to unwind in the holidays.)

Do certain environments/ activities trigger him? Clothing? Mystery pains? (Sensory issues)

It took me years to make sense of DS's issues and to put them together and accept that the terrible 2s going from 10m to 7 years is not developmentally typical and that there was probably more to it.

I'm not saying what is and what isn't, but people's experiences on MN helped me to make sense of the idiosyncracies of DS's behaviour as he doesn't present in a typical way. Even before diagnosis, adjusting my rèaction to avoid and downplay flashpoints helped avoid aggravating him (not ignoring, it is always dealt with, but he feeds off my reaction and it is more effective to calmly manage the situation and talk when the rational parts of his brain can function again.)

If his behaviour doesn't seem joined up to you, go to the GP. Even if it doesn't get very far at this stage, you're getting a paper trail established. I went armed with a mind map of all his quirks and various examples right from infancy. While his teachers would not think to suggest ASD, the consultant diagnosed the day she saw him without psychology referal as there was so much evidence.

He sounds overtired to me and yes, 4!!
My middle son was extremely hard work at this age too. Incredibly strong willed and passionate which resulted in some explosive tantrums around this age.

He is 10 now and while still passionate and opinionated he has mostly learnt what is socially acceptable.

He hated losing at that age. Sounds like your son.

It also sounds like you’re doing your best.

What I would say is go for natural consequences rather than random ones that feel like punishments to him.

I wouldn’t link a food treat to misbehaving at preschool. Did preschool already deal with his behaviour? Because if they did I wouldn’t personally be doubling up the consequences at home too.

I would just chat with him about his day- reinforce what the teacher has said but listen to his point of view too. Lots of things at school don’t feel very fair to children (sometimes they are right) but they need to learn the social norms of behaviour and how to deal with strong emotions.

How does he respond when you do time out or disciple him? I thin sometimes parents of kids with explosive tempers can end up appeasing their behaviour in attempt to avoid escalating tempers

I'm an SEN teacher and work with children with very challenging, explosive behaviour. Nothing I will say is a criticism, more an observation.

It seems that your son gets a lot of attention when he explodes (negative attention is still attention). My first thought with the car incident is put your child locks on. You can also get different harnesses that are more difficult for children to unbuckle themselves - we have a lot of runners at my school and being chased is what they want. I would also use more planned ignoring with him: once you've explained once, he can have a reminder and then that's it. You have to stay as calm as possible. If you keep speaking to him, he will feel that he can keep bargaining with you.

Also try using sand timers and keep him on the chair/step until he is calm - restart the timer until he has say for a minute without screaming. Act as unbothered as possible. It's hard but it works eventually.

Definitely pursue this with your SENCO/INCO and GP. Non-medically trained staff are not trained to diagnose and can get in trouble if they misspeak.

He may not have ADHD/ASD but look into PDA (pathological demand avoidance). These children need a lot of control or they become extremely anxious - but unfortunately having lots of control also causes anxiety because it is a lot of pressure! He sounds similar to two children I teach with this condition so it is worth exploring.

Otherwise yes, he could be very over tired. You sound like you're working really hard to help him and I'm sure with the right support and professional guidance your son will calm down and settle. Try not to be too hard on yourself.

Aretherealnamestaken I agree with everything you said. I think it’s very easy to slip into ongoing arguments “bickering” with kids or negotiation.

Any update? What happened here? Please