Empathy/Lack Of in HFA/Aspergers - Help Me Understand Please

[BrokenMumTeenDD]

Currently going through the information on HFA/Aspergers in regards DD & things escalating & diagnosis now being more urgent (see other post)

She fits it to a tee & I realised that I probably do to BUT I keep hitting the Lack Empathy symptom & that definitely doesn't fit with either of us.

She's highly sensitive both physically and emotionally & can literally feel the strong emotions of others as her own & is affected by it. She, like me is more of the practical, straight talking friend when it comes to advice though, rather than sympathetic noises.

What exactly does this lack of empathy mean in HFA,am I taking it too literally

Thank you

Lots of people with autism/aspergers are incredibly empathetic. Lack of empathy is not something that they have to have to be diagnosed. My DS struggles with empathy - I'm not sure why. My friends DS is almost over-empathetic. Like anyone people with autism are very different!

You are taking it too literally.
It’s theory of mind that autistic ppl struggle with. So having difficulty predicting how someone might feel or reading how they feel. It doesn’t mean they don’t care how other ppl feel. The getting overwhelmed by others’ emotions and feeling them strongly is common.

I’ve heard it said that people with autism have plenty of affective empathy but lack cognitive empathy.

It absolutely does not mean lacking empathy in the the literal sense. Lots of people with HFA say they feel empathy more than NT individuals.

It's theory of mind that tends to be the struggle and not being able to predict how people will feel beyond how they themselves would feel. They do tend to feel empathy when faced with someone in clear pain, feeling suffering etc. When they do feel it they tend to feel it intensely. Some will attempt to block feeling empathy because it's so overwhelming and can be debilitating

My DS doesn't always demonstrate empathy but not because he doesn't care.

He doesn't fully 'get' the social side of relationships where you pretend to be interested or sad about things for the sake of politeness. It's sad that some of my parenting time involves directly teaching him what other people expect and how to fake it appropriately but there it is.

I have hfa. By lack of empathy, it doesn’t mean I don’t feel for someone, quite the opposite.
However my instinct is to try to offer practical help or resolution, when often what the person wants is someone to sympathise verbally.
My attempts at practical help are seen as unempathetic.

I've always seen it as not a lack of empathy but the lack of fulfilling the social expectations of expressing empathy so neurotypical people see it as a lack of empathy. So the feelings are there but because we don't express it the way everyone expects, we are labelled as not having any empathy.

In the case of my relatives with autism it is more to do with not understanding others’ perspectives; believing people with different opinions are ‘wrong’ and need their understanding corrected; being unable to conceive that other people might feel differently (e.g. I have a relative who was very hurt by what he perceived as a deliberate act of aggression when a friend made him a meal containing asparagus, as he believes asparagus is objectively disgusting and doesn’t accept that others might enjoy it). Also considering various cultural traditions (e.g. Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy) to be simply lies and people who engage in these traditions are not to be trusted about anything else. It’s often a difficulty in understanding that people experience things differently.

Thank you everyone, this now makes so much sense & I can relate to examples given too. She's had a go at me in the past that I lied to her about Santa Claus etc & I had to explain to her that it was make believe to make her happy, not lying in the true sense & I am now being accused of abuse, but her version of events is very different to what actually happened, provable by her memory of the details, such as remembering me having an abusive homophobic rant at her whilst standing in my DFs kitchen filling his dishwasher. This didn't happen & when I pointed out that DF doesn't have a dishwasher, she refused to believe me, but it's a provable fact. Counselling at college seems to be triggering this, which having spoken to NAS is even more of concern as they said that counselling not target to ASD can throw up problems like this, but puts me in a very difficult position as by confronting that with college I'm scared it makes me look guilty & I'm feeling an absolute nervous wreck as my attempts to contact them so far haven't had any results. There is however a note on her college portal asking her to see them today as regards safeguarding after her breakdown pre half term holidays. I'm normally very much a coper who tackles things & gets things done, I've fought her corner at detriment to my own health all her life, & wouldn't have it any other way, but I'm struggling so much with this as I feel absolutely heartbroken that she thinks I'm abusive & feel everyone I now have to deal with believes her.

We now realise diagnosis is urgent & having been let down by CAHMs etc twice over, knowing how long it takes to get through the system & likely to be refused assessment again, a private diagnosis seems the only real way forward, but it's more money than we can really afford, so we want to be sure. Your answers tell me that she definitely ticks all boxes, so I'm now waiting for replies to emails as to where we can go for a private assessment that will be accepted by the NHS etc. NAS surprisingly weren't too much help with that as they said they have links on our local webpage, but don't vet them, so had no idea if they were any good though I've joe spotted that they have an assessment centre of their own in London, which we can get to. I just need to know if the particular testing they do, will be accepted elsewhere. I've experience of Private assessments for other medical conditions only been accepted if done by a doctor who also worked for the NHS, luckily ours did, but I've seen others spend hundreds only to have the diagnosis ignored by the NHS & therefore schools etc.

I'm still not sure about the lack of ability to read others motives, but I can also see that if I have it too, I've brought her up with the coping techniques I've developed myself. She has struggled with understanding that people can lie & not be who they show you to be, but I've taught her to always trust her gut instinct over whatever she is shown, that plus her interest in psychology & body language, which I encouraged as it seemed sensible. I personally can read people like books, I literally can feel who they are, often before they even speak & DD can do this too, though we've had some very scary episodes where she was taken in by people who didn't have her best interests at heart.

Can I ask another slightly unrelated question that I'm really struggling with those of you with the condition,

There is a part of me that is concerned that some of this is manipulative behaviour, we've definitely seen evidence of her doing that when she's playing me & her DF off against each other to make me look bad but then she maybe just believes I am bad This definitely flares up in the weeks before & during her periods which can be all over tge place so MDD was suggested on a health related group & it definitely fits when we read up on that.

She has a friend who lives independently with SS support after running away from an abusive home life. Abuse was deemed emotional. I think DD bonding with this particular friend has been comparing notes on evil mothers. No big deal as she's a teen & they all do that at times, but there's a niggle at the back of my mind, Plus DD has said to me that she wants to live in a place like S away from me. What she's doing now, could be her manipulating this to happen, or at least trying to, but I can't get my head around my wonderful beautiful, honest soul of a DD doing that, despite my instinct seemingly saying otherwise.

I could never lie to someone I cared about, generally be manipulative etc, I'd hate myself, but in a work situation it was more of a game & I could lie & manipulate the situation to benefit the company with some skill. So this confuses me & I am questioning my instincts on this. It's been such a rollercoaster recently I don't know anymore

Thanks again for the replies, it's a huge help

PMDD!

Having hfa means having difficulty in reading and responding to others appropriately.

For me it did not preclude being as manipulative as any other immature teenage girl.

My lo is over empathetic /caring/obsessive with babies and young children's basic needs, but has no understanding beyond the rote of what has been told, for others.

Over and under can be just as problematic.

To your original question, as PP said it seems to be about affective vs cognitive empathy, and issues with theory of mind. There is a 'test' to see if children get what's going on for others: the Sally Anne basket test: www.educateautism.com/infographics/sally-anne-test.html .

But as with everything, all autistic people are different. Both my DC are autistic. One passed the Sally Anne basket test with no problem, while the other one had a classic lack of theory of mind answer. I don't think it works that well with older children, because they learn how to predict this, but it would give you an idea of what's meant by lack of theory of mind.

What I meant to add: I always thought that my child that didn't get the basket test was being manipulative. But hearing his answer, it became so clear that he genuinely misses huge parts of social communication and what goes on outside him. It's made me much more patient and empathetic with him.

I was told with DS that it wasn’t necessary for him to fit all criteria. He has HFA and actually does have quite a high degree of empathy, so much so that people do asked me if I am sure about his diagnosis. Yes, we are but ASD is a spectrum and so different people fit on different places on that spectrum.

Extract from 'How To Be Autistic' by Charlotte Amelia Poe:
"I really do believe that people don't understand that just because we freeze up around emotion doesn't mean we don't feel it, or know that you're suffering. We just don't know what to do with that information."

When I read that (I have spectrum features), it clicked. I find it quite difficult to process most unexpected things I encounter, and I now know I certainly can't do it very quickly. Why should emotion and reaction to the emotion of another person be an exception to that?

Lots of people with autism/aspergers are incredibly empathetic

This.

The issue, such as it is, is actually (for some people on the spectrum) with knowing how to appropriately express the empathy they feel.

So this is basically a historical misunderstanding that lingered in the medical literature for far too long and hasn’t quite been put to bed yet.

Where are you OP? My son saw a great lady for his diagnosis and she used to work for CAMHS so helps deal with it when they dont want to accept the private diagnosis. We actually didnt have an issue with our local CAMHS but she would have backed us up if we had. The cost was about £1200.

It's a myth that people who are autistic don't have empathy. Female autistic people do tend to have a lot of empathy. I'm autistic and feel other people's emotions. So does ds2. Autism presents differently in females.

I always think dd has too much empathy and it's often misplaced. She worries too much about other people's thoughts and feelings or ascribes feelings to inanimate objects and she struggles to deal with her reactions to it.

As others have said, it's one particular type of empathy, where they can put themselves into another's place to gauge their reaction, that they have problems with.

My eldest DS is very empathic when it comes to people or animals who are down on their luck. I've seen him literally in tears watching Comic Relief, or ads for charities, and he would give the shirt off his back to someone living on the streets if I let him (as it is, it gets very expensive walking past people begging, and I do worry about him being taken advantage of.

My DS2 is less empathic to strangers, but is quite sensitive to my moods, and those of people close to him.

Both on the spectrum (and it's not just girls!)

Thank you so much for posting this OP.

So many people believe that Asperger's = emotionless and unempathetic person. Sadly this true of MN (and judging by MNHQ's responses to me, several of them too). Often they are describing a narcissist or psychopath but their (deeply) flawed understanding of autism means they ascribe the negative personality traits as those of someone with autism, usually Asperger's (though that term should not be used now)

It really does make me happy that you are questioning this and trying to understand your daughter. I feel I am very sensitive and have a lot of affective empathy e.g. yes I totally get why someone might be upset if they've just been given bad news such as the death of a loved on. I hate seeing people upset (as in I feel so bad for them) - but because I hate touching or hugging people I focus on practical help - yet I am aware the normal society-approved reaction is to hold someone tight and hug them. (the exception to this are my children, they get all the hugs they need or want)

The result is you feel like a pretty shitty human as you know you are not behaving like society wants, but you are FEELING it deeply, but can't express it.

From my perspective, the big issue is knowing how to translate the feelings you have inside - huge feelings - and express them in a socially acceptable way.

My wording is clumsy - I hope you get what I mean. But autistic people can have plenty affective empathy. we are not automatons who think only of ourselves.

So many people believe that Asperger's = emotionless and unempathetic person. Sadly this true of MN (and judging by MNHQ's responses to me, several of them too). Often they are describing a narcissist or psychopath but their (deeply) flawed understanding of autism means they ascribe the negative personality traits as those of someone with autism, usually Asperger's (though that term should not be used now)

Absolutely agree.

Apart from the thing about the word “Aspergers”. I find it useful and would prefer to keep it, regardless of what the DSM-V says. It is helpful to have a separate term for (a person with) autism that is high-functioning.

Arietty - my issues with Asperger's is the Nazi link. Notwithstanding that issue, I agree it is a helpful term!

I think there is a bit of a push to start talking about autism with or without learning difficulties which I think is helpful as it focuses on the core issues of autism (e.g. triad of impairments) and then considers whether there are learning difficulties or not.

I think high-functioning is a misleading term and should not be used. For many this means super-intelligent, in a great job, no struggles with life but are horrible to everyone around them (just check out the threads in relationships about being "married to an Aspie"). High-functioning means an IQ over 70. It means being able to do day-to-day living without too much help. So I'm against that term (as well as "mild autism" which is even more unhelpful)

But I know it is a sensitive issue for many. But what is clear is that there is a whole lot of awareness, understanding and acceptance required.

A slight derail but I think talking about Autism with or without LD would be a good idea or something along that line. There has been a valid criticism that high functioning autism is quite misleading as people's abilities are so varied.