Primary teachers, how would you resolve this, please?

[BrightLightsBigCity]

Or anyone with similar experience :).

Ds yr4 has one best friend (A) , in different classes this year, but still hang out at break/lunch, along with a very good, younger friend of both (B). Another kid (C) sits with B in class and has started following the group around at free time. He has been pushing, shoving, taking hats and calling names for a while, and the others retaliate and have gotten into trouble. Telling the teacher on duty hasn't resolved anything, as she asked C if he wanted to be friends, he said yes, but has continued with poor behaviour. DS is overweight (started due to physical /medical issues) and it is getting him down to be called fatty by this kid every day. I've told him to avoid, report to teacher, etc, but nothing has happened or changed. He should not have to put up with regular verbal abuse nor leave his group of friends just because some mouthy kid wants to hang out with one of his friends. I don't see why the group should include him if he can't be nice, either! Kid hasn't improved over months, he's had plenty of time to make a change.

What's the most tactful and effective thing to do/say? Soumds like a small thing, but its having a big impact on ds. Making other friends isnt an option, as his other friends play footy during free time, which he's not up for or interested in.

Any advice gratefully received on how to proceed!

Can you call for a meeting to discuss in person with the CT?
In the long run this could have a really negative effect on your ds.

How do B and A get on with C? It sounds as though it may not be as simple as everyone seeing C as the 'mouthy' kid.
Of course your DS shouldn't be bullied but if this is a friendship issue, you can't solve it by isolating the child you don't like. There are 4 DCs involved in here. You can prioritise your DC but the school is responsible for all the DCs not just your's.

I would encourage C to make a wider circle of friends and encourage your ds to speak to an adult whenever the name calling happens.

@AnneOfTeenFables of course I'm not suggesting C is isolated. But he does need to learn what is acceptable. I have no issues with him being part of the friendship group apart from the fact that he is not behaving in an appropriate way! Afaik C sits with B in class, but B makes no effort to get together at free time. C will come and find them, folow them round, and behave badly towards them, ds and A in particular. To me it sounds like he either wants to monopolize B by driving off ds and A, or has no concept of how to behave decently to ppl you want to befriend. Daily abuse is not acceptable, and at the least I would expect him to be told until he gets the message and changes his behaviour, if he finds that impossible, I fail to see why other pupils should be told to be friends with him! What would your solution be? It has now gotten to the point where it is affecting ds's outlook for the day before we even get to school. I don't like being the parent who complains over little things, but it's not mentally healthy to have to put up with this every day in all your free time.

Thx shelly & TheChosen, I've obviously told ds to keep reporting when it happens, and will try to see the cs next time ds mentions it. Hopefully C will find a few other friends if encouraged.

We would be supporting C with his social skills, usually at this age they have got a bit more sophisticated at friend-making but C seems to need to be taught the skills explicitly. This pattern of trying to get others to play is very common in younger children, less so by yr4.
However, that doesn’t help your DS right now! I’d talk to the teacher after school. Explain the strategies you have taught your DS and that it is having little impact. Ask them for help, but they probably won’t tell you want they are doing with the other children.

I would ask his teacher for a meeting and tell her you expect the verbal abuse to be dealt with. How they do that is not really your business but your son should not have to tolerate being called names.

Ask the teacher for a meeting and explain what has been happening and that DS is upset.

I think you're very wedded to the idea of how your DC is presenting what's happening. If you want to try to resolve this then you need to be prepared to ask hard questions including how is your DC behaving in this dynamic and was there a reason why they were moved to a different class from their friend this year.

We had similar in DD's school but it was complicated by additional needs that other parents were unaware of; parents who wanted to push a friendship their child wanted but oblivious to their child's impact on the other children's dynamic and parents completely unaware of their own DC's bad behaviour. Added to that there were parents asking for their DCs to be put in different classes to try to encourage new friendships whilst outwardly telling the other parents they were supportive of the original friendship. ime if you go to the school sure that you know everything that is happening then they will reflect that back. If you go and ask questions and are open to the fact that the best solution may involve your child cultivating other friendships too then you are more likely to find a solution that works for your DC.

Don't expect C to be prevented from playing with DS, A and B, but you can expect the lunchtime supervisors to be alerted to the issue, and to take DS seriously if he reports a problem.

What year is the younger friend and his sidekick?

The younger friend will need to hang with children in his own year group as well as his older year four friends or he is at risk of isolating himself from his peers. If he was in my class it would be him I was concerned about and I would be encouraging the friendship between him and the 'annoying' child sometimes dc who find friendships difficult gravitate towards older dc and adults as it's easier.

@AnneOfTeenFables you seem very wedded to trying to tell me that my ds and his friends have to put up with this. They don't. And you are also implying some issue with ds. All the children are mixed up every year. Some teachers have them move tables each week to mix with others, some don't. There is no significance to the fact that Dr and his best friend are not in the same class this year. Throughout primary, these three have sometimes been in each other's class, sometimes not. I go to every single parent teacher meeting, and at no point has any teacher had anything negative to say about his interactions with others.
I have spoken to dc and his friend, and am getting the same feedback from both separately (and not in a rehearsed way) and they have been very honest in saying how they have acted. They have owned up to taking his hat when he took theirs, etc, so I don't think I'm hearing a totally one sided story. They have tried walking away, and he follows them. They've asked him to go play with someone else, he follows them. Maybe he does have additional needs, but I would expect his socialization to be supported if this were the case, and it's not.

I spoke to ds's class teacher after school last week and got the usual responses. She noted names and incidents, told ds to report to teacher on duty whenever anything happened. And he has. And again, C was asked if he wanted to be friends, he said yes, and that was it. Again. He has been hitting ds and his friends and verbally insulting ds since, no change. I think part of the problem may be the different teachers on duty for different halves of lunch, and on different days, are not seeing the full picture.

So, next step I think is to email and request that someone speak to the child formally and encourage interaction with others, and to recognise that some ppl might not want to play with him, and its not acceptable to behave as he does. It's pretty obvious hitting and verbally abusing ds and his friends hasn't changed with the casual approach. You might think it's something that ds should have to put up with because this kid doesn't understand how to make friends, but why should other kids suffer bullying behaviour just because the kid may not perceive it as such? (And there is no evidence at all that C has additional needs.) EVERYONE needs supporting in this, not just just the kid who doesn't know how to behave acceptably.

Any advice on wording gratefully received!

@Trahira this is what I had hoped, but it's obv not taken seriously when all that happens is he's asked if he wants to be friends, says yes, then continues to hit and verbally abuse three kids on a daily basis, over a period of months, now. Obv I'm seeing the large number of incidents which the teachers aren't collating. What difference might there be if the teachers are aware? As far as I can see, there are a few options,
A - kid stops bullying, or
B - kid is told to leave them alone.

No other option is fair. Why should a nice group of three friends get separated because of one kid who behaves inappropriately? Each of them gets on fine eith other kids in their classes, but they get on well because of shared interests and temperament.

If you want to upgrade this to an official complaint of bullying then the school will have to take it further. My dgs was in a similar situation from yr 4 and it was never resolved by the school. We encouraged him to be more resilient, not react and to walk away when possible. He made a wider group of friends who verbally defended him against the other boy and saw his bf more out of school. Eventually he was able to see it was the boy's problem/issue and not his and to feel some sympathy for him. They never became friends but my dgs dealt with it better. Now he is at secondary school and these coping skills have helped him deal with negative behaviour there as well - we used to tell him there will always be ars**es in life to deal with! (used different words). I hope the school is able to help you.

Thx @vhs95, I appreciate your answer. Forgot to day earlier, Ds and friends are y4. Well done to your dgs for getting through it. Ds has been pretty resilient so far, but the daily unpleasant personal comments are getting to him. He's a kid who has a small group of good friends, doesn't play sports at break like most of the boys in his class, so I dont think he'll ever have a real wide circle of friends for break/lunch, unfortunately.

His school had a couple of indoor lunchtime activities that were supervised - Lego club was one - and he went to those. I know it wasn't dealing with the issue, just avoiding it but we were at a loss tbh. We boosted his confidence (to counteract the mean comments) but I wouldn't be honest if I said it had no affect on his wellbeing. Do you know the parents? Is it worth cultivating them to see what's going on? I hope you get it sorted 🙏

It sounds like child C has poor skills with regard to making friends. Unfortunately some people struggle to master this and somehow think that being abusive is going to endear them to others.

It's such a hard situation and actually one that my DD who is in year 8 is currently in. They have a mixed gender group and one boy has set his sights on hanging out with them. Unfortunately this boy has gone about it by being rude and abusive to half the group. This has caused stress within the group with some not wanting anything to do with him and others saying that it's unfair to leave him out. DD is asking me for advice but TBH I was at a loss. Both are right, I would never condone a child being ostracised BUT kids do have to learn at some point that a better way to make friends is to be nice and I don't see why my DD should spend her time with someone who makes her feel uncomfortable.

Sorry no advice to add, except to say these issues can happen at any age.

Also to say, I work in a school. I think you are right in the fact that the lack of continuity is the issue. Your DS with speak to the adult on duty who will deal with it there and then and assume it is sorted. They will not realise it is an ongoing issue. I think the best course of action could be for your DS to tell his own class teacher when they return to lesson if an incident has occurred, rather than telling the teacher on duty. That way the class teacher can build up a full picture of what is happening. Tell the teacher that you have told him to do this and the reason for it so she doesn't tell your son he should have told the playground teacher. Usually we do like to deal with things there and then, but I think in this case, the teacher needs the full story.

Is your information coming from school or from your DS? If it's the latter, you need to go and speak to staff to find out exactly what's going on, from all perspectives.

Initially it was him mentioning it in passing when I asked about his day. I have since spoken to his friend, who has independently said the same and more. Class teacher was unaware of anything at the time I spoke to her, although given the circumstances I don't see why she would be. It's a large open area with lots of kids, different t eachers on duty each day, and this kid generally runs off when it gets to the point he is going to be reported. The teacher of C is aware something is going on, as she asked ds about it. I'm unsure what you think staff would tell me, as I've already been in, and have now emailed, with no acknowledgement. Afaik they will not discuss another child with parents, anyway.

They are in different classes. Ask if you can meet both class teachers at the same time.

Tell them that you son is being bullied with name calling/hat taking etc.

Ask them how you should advise your son to respond AND what they can do in class and at break to stop this behaviour.

Listen to their answers and be supportive. Ask if they can address social skills and how to make friends in class.

Emphasize that you don’t want either child to be isolated because of this and you would like them to get along.

NB - the ‘get along’ thing is plan A only. If this doesn’t result in a better outcome, do not force it and possibly even insist that the school does not force it.

I mentioned in the email that I was happy to meet, no response, and clearly said that ds cannot resolve this himself (and laid out what he'd done/said, still the namecalling/hat taking, etc continues ) and asked that teachers supported this by speaking formally to C. If this has happened, it clearly has had no effect, as there were incidents every day apart from ones they were kept inside due to inclement weather.
I think directly asking for a meeting is a good next step. I'm pretty annoyed I'm having to go to this extent, over something which should be very easy to stop.

OO, you’re not seeing anything happen on a daily basis because you’re not there. You have second hand reports from young children, who at that age usually only see one side of the whole picture.
One thing I’m gathering from your posts is that a child wants to join in with 3 others and is being excluded so is reverting to attention seeking behaviour to get a response. Obviously this does need to be addressed for all concerned.
As a Senco, I’d probably set up a social skills group, maybe Lego therapy, for all 4boys to try to develop positive relationships.
On a different point, you say your dB is overweight and getting name called about if. In a perfect world no one would call him because of this, but life isn’t fair like that and he may well get this a lot. Think about how he can be supported to be body confident so that when it does happen he’s not as affected by it.

Also, one child I had who sounds similar to yours was given the opportunity at the end of each break time to sit down with an adult and discuss the things that happened during the break. Any issues would be dealt with by the adult where necessary at the start of the next break. So this child felt things would be dealt with, and the other child eventually stopped as he kept losing out on his break time dealing with previous incidents. They never became best buddies, but both certainly became mire settled.

I'm unsure what you think staff would tell me, as I've already been in, and have now emailed, with no acknowledgement. Afaik they will not discuss another child with parents, anyway.

Well I'm asking because, in most cases, the actual truth is somewhere between the two versions of events. The school can only tell you what they've seen and been reported to them by the children so there will be gaps there. And children will often not give an entirely accurate account (even more than one of them) because they're children and omit details that they don't think are important but sometimes are. They don't do this deliberately they do it because they're kids.

We have many incidents which on the face of it seem very clear cut but are much more complicated than initially thought. In your situation, I would absolutely have expected a response from school and the fact that you haven't is completely unacceptable IMO (and just rude).

I agree that asking for a meeting is your next step and I would also follow that meeting up with a letter summarising what was discussed and the outcome of the meeting. I also agree that this little chap needs to be supported, but school have responsibility to safeguard all children (including yours), not just some of them.

@Soontobe60 thx for your comments. We support ds with body confidence as much as possible, and are also trying to make sustainable changes, but this kid is undermining him on a daily basis. And I wouldn't expect that to be ignored anywhere else in life either.
I appreciate your view that the child wants to play and is attention seeking because he is being excluded, but to the very best of my knowledge this has not been the case. He just didn't want to play what the others were doing, he had been asked numerous times if he wanted to play. He obv prefers to steal hats, food, fight and generally annoy ds and his friend. This isn't playing.

I totally get that every child needs to be supported, but this isn't happening. This kid is getting away with his disruptive behaviour daily. That is not supporting the other 3. I know that teachers get limited info. But they are getting 3 independent reports on this, vs the one kid who has a completely different 'story', and, as it turns out, is troublesome in other areas as well. This isn't just coming from my ds to me. He and his friends are in different classes and the class teachers have asked them what's going on.

After hearing nothing, I tried to make an appt with ds class T. Left my detailswith the office to be contacted, but ds told me in the afternoon that she s off for the next 2 weeks. Went to see the T of C , who was ds T last year. She really just told me that she couldn't discuss another child, she was aware things were happening, and that we (ie the school) couldn't just keep on doing the same thing every day with no effect. So they know it's ongoing. Left my details at the office again for the year supervisor to contact me for a meeting. Not v happy, as this has been going on for many many weeks, I have had no feedback, and nothing has changed for my ds and his friends (one of whom ended up in detention for a fight with C, not good).