School League Tables: Can anyone help me understand what 'entering Ebacc' means?

[PencilFace]

I'm in the process of researching secondary schools for DS1. On the gov.uk website you can compare two schools and I am trying to interpret the results.

School number one has 'entering Ebacc 78%' school number two has 'entering Ebacc 25%'

I know I could just google this and I have but want to make sure I am understanding it right with my sleep deprived brain. So could someone please humour me and tell me what this means?!

Thanks

It just means how many of their cohort do the right subjects to "count" as Ebacc - however the Ebacc in itself isn't a qualification and isn't certificated so it's a fairly useless measure.

Thank you. That is not what I was taking it to mean at all! So its not a reliable indicator of a schools performance then? I wonder if there is anything on the gov site that is.

It suggests school 1 requires most students to take the Ebacc subjects whereas school 2 doesn't. But beyond that it says nothing really.

The Ebacc is the combination of English, Maths, two sciences, history or geography, and a language. So if a pupil misses out any of those at GCSE they won't be "entering Ebacc".

It's supposed to demonstrate that children are getting a quality education.e.g. Science, a humanity and a language have to be be inclued, so a school's great pass rate at GCSE can't consist of "mickey mouse" subjects (which is how some schools manipulated results int he past).

What it means in practice is that option choices are vastly restricted and children are forced to take EBacc subjects whether they want to or not/whether they have aptitude for those subjects or not, for the sake of the school's performance tables.

Wow okay I am glad I posted as I was interpreting it completley wrong.

Aside from Ofsted reports, how on earth are you supposed to tell how good a school is then?

It's really hard, but for "most" children academic performance isn't likely to be the best indicator, even though it's what parents will be looking at.

I'm afraid, I have come to the conclusion that very little about our schools or school system is for the benefit of the children. The curriculum is very narrow and GCSEs are too easy/ don't require enough independent thought for gifted children, but are too hard and therefore demoralising for "average" students. Any advice you get from schools will be based on what is best for the school's performance or budget.

It's probably time I retired

Thank you for your view ElderAve even though we have months to decide I still feel it is such a huge decision and want to try and get it as 'right' as I can. I suppose looking round the schools may give us a feel for them. DS seems to have no opinion at all and sometimes seems to forget that he even has to go to secondary school at all, so I feel the weight of the decision on my shoulders.

I found the school visits very helpful. I warmed to some schools I didn't expect to, and others that I'd had on my 'shortlist' gave me very little impression of the sort of environment my DC would thrive in.

Word of mouth was useful too.

And you say the weight of the decision is in your shoulders. Well, to be honest it is. Your DS should have some input, but we found ourselves with a differing favourite so I had to put my ^i'm wiser and know best' hat on and make the final call. Both DD and I are glad I did.

Academic results and progress 8 scores are a good indicator but can be skewed if you live in a grammar area.

Ofsted can change and outstanding schools are often not fully inspected over long periods so lots can change but usually good or outstanding would be most parents preference so over subscription can be an issue.

Word of mouth is generally ok but one child's experience can vastly vary from another child's so speak to a number of parents to get a general idea if possible.

Ask on local forums or community pages about local schools, obviously you will get a mixed bag of responses and not everyone will have a glowing report but it can often help if you have no friends of older children to ask.

Visit as many open days as you can (they are often advertised in the local free press or on school websites) Open days are good for assessing available facilities and asking specific questions about class sizes or asking about particular specialisms etc They are also a good opportunity to speak to current pupils however often only the well behaved pupils are asked to help out at these events. Don't be swayed by a glossy brochure or a rousing headteacher speech alone as a lot of school trusts now have marketing departments.

Check admission arrangements for each and every school and work out what "category" your child's application would fall in to. Contact the school and ask if the school is over subscribed and if so which category it cut off in and at what distance if applicable. Remain realistic about the likelihood of a successful application.

Use all your preferences, don't just pick one school it will not move you up the list in any way. If you are allocated a school you do not wish your child to attend do not refuse the place offered as the local education authority has fulfilled its legal to provide a school place and is not obliged to find you another. Hold tight appeal for as many schools as you want, put child's name on waiting list for each preferred school and ring the lea every couple of days to see if spaces open up in other schools that you might consider.

DO NOT miss the deadline for school applications as late applications go to the back of the queue irregardless of admission criteria position.

Sorry 6th paragraph should read:

Check admission arrangements for each and every school and work out what "category" your child's application would fall in to. Contact the school and ask if the school is over subscribed and if so which category it cut off in in the last 3 admission rounds (last three years) and at what distance if applicable. Remain realistic about the likelihood of a successful application.

Thank you, all advice is useful. As DS is my eldest as I have no friends with older children I am finding it quite daunting.

So after looking again school one has 51% obtaining a pass in maths, english etc. School two has only 23%. Progress 8 scores are 0.03 for school one and -0.02 for school two. Both 'good' ofsteds.

DS is intelligent and mature but very, very lazy. I feel that will be his main issue whatever school he goes to but I still want to give him the best chance possible.

School 1 seems better on paper!

One thing to watch out is that the league tables, I think, quote pass rates for grade 5 Maths/English. But a 4 is a pass (a 5 is a strong pass).

You can normally see results based on 'previous attainment' so if you think your DS is a high achiever you can compare schools just on that, as you don't care how they are with average or low previous attainment kids.

I'd look at Ofsted reports to flag up anything potentially dodgy, but then rely a bit on reputation amongst locals you'd trust and your impressions from visiting the school. And remember that whatever the school's results for a particular subject might be, they will vary a lot from year to year, and how your child will do will depend on which teacher he has, who's in his class etc. Differences between schools are not as clear-cut as the data might make them seem, and they can change drastically in a short time.

Those progress 8 scores are very close so whilst positive impact is better than negative there’s not much between them. From the much better GCSE results but similar progress 8, looks like school 1 has a “better” entry cohort - could be on average more academically able but more likely that it’s kids with more motivation or home support.

Also really worth looking at whether results are on an upward or downward trend or pretty level as generally much better to be at school getting better than getting worse.

Open days vital to get a feel for them, ask questions etc. We found ourselves pleasantly surprised by a school that didn’t look as good in paper. I also warmed to the schools where the staff talked to DC rather than parents. Also gives you a chance to talk to current pupils.

Ask on Mumsnet re specific schools - though take the responses with a pinch of salt and think about your DC’s needs in particular.

Also think about how practical the journey to school will be and whether your DC likely to know others there. (DD was quite happy to go to a school different to her close friends and where she knew a handful of people and made new friends, DS has severe anxiety issues and needed the comfort of friends going to same school to be able to cope with the transition.)

Take into account any views of DC - they need to be comfortable going there - but not too much if they are based purely on where their friends are going or if they liked the look of the canteen!

By the way, I write this as a parent who has one DC at a school that is great for them and one at the school favoured by DH and DS (but not me) but which both now agree was the wrong choice - DH was swayed by results and reputation rather than sending him to the up and coming school (had been bad but on upward trend with new head who clearly cared about the kids and staff) that I wanted him to go to.

Thanks all, this is all really helpful.

AliMonkey From what I know of the schools you are correct, the area I live in is a real mix but school one is at the more 'affluent' end, you can also see this if you look at the proportion of children recieving free schools meals which is much higher in school two.

Unfortunatley I live in a costal town not famed for its amazing schools. Apart from giving DS the best chance academically I just want him to be around other kids who want to learn. He is a quiet and reserved boy and wouldn't do well in a loud and boisterous class but I guess most of this is out of my control.

Progress 8 scores will give you a useful indication of how the school scores against itself in exam results year on year and of course against other schools in the area. The Ofsted website can also be useful in helping you see where each school ranks in terms of performance. But ultimately, try and arrange a school visit during the day and see how you all feel about the school.

The progress 8 scores are not that different between the two schools, what concerns me about school two is that only 23% are obtaining a pass in the core subjects, the local authority average is 46.7 % so it does seem rather low.

We will be visiting both schools anyway so hopefully can get a sense of what they are like from that. I found choosing a primary school so so much easier than this, there were several good ones to choose from, this feels much tougher.

The 'pass' in the online tables is a grade 5 not a 4.

Have a look at the previous attainment and relative progress.
e.g. School 1 might have 25% high, 40% mid, 35% low.
School 2 might have 10% high, 30% mid, 60% low.

Then look at the progress for each group. Is it similar across the board or worse for one type.

Remember previous low attainers (those who don't get old 4b or new 100 in KS2 SATs) wouldn't be expected to reach grade 5 for maths/English and even 4s would be a stretch for many.

I agree with the suggestions to visit the schools and see how you feel about them. Ds attends a state grammar with great results. Unfortunately it's been completely the wrong environment for him as he is autistic. So in hindsight we should have been looking far more at what SEN support a school offered and what pastoral care was available although he didn't have a diagnosis when he joined the school.

None of us can predict what support our children may need in their teenage years so it's always good to look beyond just a set of results.

TeenPlusTwenties I hadn't thought of looking at the results like that but it makes a lot of sense, thanks.

Punxsutawney My younger (year 4) DS2 has SEN and I have been so wrapped up in thinking about DS1 I hadn't even thought to research the SEN provision in both schools as I assume they will attend the same school. I hope things improve for your DS at his school.