DS refusing to stay with his DF

[MorningNinja]

I'll try and keep this short.

My ex and I have 2 DS's aged 13 and 10.

Both DS's stay with their DF 3 nights out of 10. This is when I am in working in the evenings although I work full time.

Me ex and I split 5 years ago due to his infidelity. To be honest it was a relief, my ex was like a third child and not a particularly supportive partner - I made all decisions and took care of everything at home.

Since the split my ex has had a child with his FWB. They tried to make a go of it and this brought a whole load of issues including threats of suicide from the mother in front of my DS's (DS (10) was worried that she would die) and then the end of that relationship which dragged on for a while - they were told the relationship ended because the mother was crazy - the poor woman probably had PND. What was also tricky was that my DS's were completely confused by the pregnancy in the first place because they didn't know about their DF's relationship.

My ex lives a 10 minute walk away. His house is a mess and along with that he has a cat and dog. DS said the puppy shits inside, the house also has an aroma of cat urine. Both DS's share a room which they dislike, although I realise this is perfectly acceptable. Their DF does not buy them clothes to wear when at his - I used to pack a bag but would never get their stuff back so resorted to giving him clothes for them to wear when they are there. These clothes are now too small.

Since the split I have met my DP 2.5 years ago. We don't live together but plan to do so in the next year. He's part of a lot of our lives - we have days out together, holidays and just spend time in each other's company. My DS's say they enjoy him being around and look forward to spending time with him and his kids. He's a steady person in their lives and reliable too.

I started to notice changes in my DS (10) in the summer. He started to get obsessive over going to toilet and this has manifested in a fear of not being able to use the toilet at all times. Its affected everything - leaving for school, his time in school, him playing sport and the embarrassment he feels about it. He's also got an issue with what time it is. The dr has completed tests and theres nothing medically wrong. His school SENCO has completed a multi-agency referral and he is about to start school counselling next week. At home he says he gets these feelings of sadness that come over him. He'd cry and not tell me why and these crying sessions would go on for quite some time. He eventually told me why he was crying, I think when he could make sense of it all, and said its because he doesn't like being at his DF's.

He said the reasons are; his little brother is there, aged 2 and he feels an overwhelming responsibility to look after him. He said his dad asks him to look after him too although I'm not sure if this us something he feels himself. He said they don't do anything, just watching TV; DF vapes in the house and he doesn't like it; he has few toys (his DB said he has a few cars and a lego set); he also said his DF gets angry (never violent) I think what he means by this is his DF is very emotional and cannot hide any emotion and he picks up on it.

My DS(13) agrees with a lot of what DS (10) says. He said he prefers to stay with me but feels sorry for his dad. He's got the ability not to pick up on the cues because he just lives in his own world.

DS(10) is refusing to stay with his dad. I've swapped shifts, used my parents and DP has helped. With forward planning I can take care of him my end. DS(13) is still staying with his dad and I'm supportive of this if that's what he wants.

I'm just at a loss with knowing the best for DS(10). I want to tell his DF that at the moment overnights should stop completely- this will remove DS's anxiety and then we can make tentative steps when hes feeling stronger. My concerns are that his relationship with his DF will be on a downward slope and that in the long term it will not help him. I also don't want to be 'that's mum.

Does anyone have any advice. And sorry this was such an essay!

Your younger son is suffering. In your place, I would tell your ex that contact with his younger son will not be overnight for the foreseeable future until your son feels more able to cope.

I'd also check how the 13yo feels about going to his dad's on his own. It's a lot of responsibility to place on a 13yo.

Quite a lot going on there. Witnessing a suicidal person can be a very traumatic event in itself.
If the house is full of animal excrement does that not come under neglect? Unsuitable living environment? Or is it not so bad? - Sorry I can't quite work it out. Lack of toys, and even vaping I don't see as major concerns, but animal shit and not clothing the kids sounds bad (although I also think at their age your ds's should be able to bring a bag of clothes and make sure they bring it home unless he's actively stopping them from returning the clothes).

If your ds is being affected to such a degree, it definitely sounds in his best interest for him to know he doesn't have to stay there until he's ready to. Are you able to have an honest chat with his father about it?

I'd check in with the 13 year old too. Could be a lot of stress for him, especially if he's going out of guilt/worry

@Mintjulia that's another thing. I'm so conscious about how he feels and in discussions with him hes still reasonably happy to go there but feels this overwhelming responsibility for his DF's happiness. The truth is his DF will never be happy because he cannot take ownership over his life. He has form for playing the victim and doing so in front of our DS's.

Can you organise for both your sons to meet their dad for Sunday lunch - maccie d's or pizza. Somewhere clean and cheerful, but then the boys come home to you. I realise it doesn't give you much of a break but it might be an answer in the short term.

Your ex might prefer it because he wouldn't have to organise breakfast, bedlinen, etc and he can still go to the pub afterwards. You could perhaps encourage him to bring the 2yo as well, so your boys could still see their half brother.

Your 13yo sounds lovely.

@BlueHarry. It's a puppy and still not trained. The cat has been there for years and its smell of urine must be in the carpets. I can smell it on their clothes when they return.

As for the clothes, he has clothes everywhere in all areas of the house. I've been as far as the kitchen and they are on the living room floor, kitchen clothes horse, up the stairs. My DS's do have some responsibility but its not as simple as grabbing them from a wardrobe. The mess is like a student house standard.

As for the vaping, I followed their car home from school a few months ago after a concert. My ex was vaping and there were plumes of vape smoke coming out of the window. This thing has a massive tank on it and chucks out a lot if stuff. It stinks too, its not pleasant and I worry about their lungs. It's in his hand and hes sucking on it constantly.

@Mintjulia, your suggestion sounds like what I'd like it to be for the time being although I don't think it'll be well received. My ex has already told the boys he has little money because hes giving myself and the other mother money every month leaving him short. This then caused my 13yo to question why I take it, why I don't earn enough money and how he feels guilty his dad doesn't have the lovely meals out that we have as a family. You're right though, hes super lovely.

And I've tried talking to their DF. I said about the half brother and he got defensive and told me to fuck off.

Ah I understand about the clothes. I just wondered if the housing situation (mess/animals) is so bad that it isn't safe for any of the children to actually be there, especially their half brother being so young.

I think the idea of him taking them for a pizza etc rather than overnight stays is probably better - if your ex would actually agree to that.

It sounds like neither of your children benefit from staying with their dad sadly.

The animal stuff is not at a standard I'd like, or most I'd imagine but not too far gone for me to say it's too much.

I feel that hes just about meeting their basic needs.

Ah I see. Well based on everything definitely I'd say definitely let your younger Ds know that he doesn't stay overnight. As for his relationship with his dad, I can't say it's not your concern because I understand it is, but it's not your responsibility. It's his responsibility (their dad's). I think you've got to try and not worry about that, and just think about what's best for your ds. I doubt staying overnight with him and getting so much anxiety as a result would do any good for their relationship anyway.

And from a kids perspective - I stopped staying with my dad as soon as I was old enough to be allowed to make that decision and it was a huge relief for me (I think that was age 13 at the time, prior to that I had to go because it was decided by the courts). I don't regret that decision for a second.

Thanks Blue, I have to agree. I just need to focus on the welfare of my DS's. The guilt of not going is causing him anxiety but is a lot better when the decision is made for him by me.

It seems like this age is a time when decisions can be made - it cant be nice having to go somewhere for days where you'd rather not be

It's a difficult one as 10 although your ex's house doesn't sound like an ideal environment by any means, it sounds like the issues are more with your son and his anxieties. Especially as your 13yo is still willing to go.

Does the dad live locally enough for your DS to still go round on the evenings he would normally stay but then come home again for the night? Would that make him feel better or does he not want to go to his dad's house at all?

This sounds exactly like my childhood.

My DM allowed me to stay away from him when I finally asked and the relief was immense.

I still felt incredibly guilty about it though: I worried about him not having a good life and whether I was upsetting him by not staying over. It also later made the relationship between my sibling and I quite strained as it felt like all the responsibility for keeping him happy fell on the one sibling that continued going.

I really recommend therapy for DS 10 and for the 13yo if he wants it too.

@Bibidy it's a 10 minute walk.

Ex has suggested this morning to DS that they see each other after school this week. That sounds like a better alternative but DS was quiet and said he doesn't want to. It's what I'd prefer than the overnights at the moment.

@RedRed9 hes consumed with guilt. He has a worry monster which he puts notes in before bed - the monster eats his worries - and his notes are about guilt and his dad being angry at him.

Just to add: another thing our DM did which, in retrospect, helped; was that she was wouldn’t ever be negative towards him aside for saying “I know” or “I’m sorry” when I spoke about him.

Although she would say. “I’m so sorry I chose him to be your father. But I’m so happy he is because without him we wouldn’t have you.”

My situation [in the past] is of course not the same as yours. No traumas. Until my ex met a woman who was resentful of our 2 boys visiting their dad at the weekends. This had happened quite happily on all sides for 7 years.

Things got awkward for the boys when they went there. They would hear ex and new partner having rows, her running me down, being given little food, not taken out just stuck inside with the tv on.

Both of the boys, then 14 and 11, came to me one day and asked not to go there again. I could see they meant it, they had seen and heard enough and witnessed their dad being a very weak and uninterested father.

I heard them. They were also very involved in sports and needed to join their teammates for football, go swimming, cycling etc with friends which I felt would be much more beneficial for their mental and physical health. Also the adults in charge of their activities were good, kind and decent male role models...fathers of their friends some of them.

I put my sons first and they are now well balanced, hard working men, married to lovely partners and children and are strong family men. Yes, they missed their dad but saw he had let them down, and they lost respect as his indifference went on despite my requests to not be so selfish and weak and under the thumb.

Even my sons could see that their dad would never change. I never ran him down either, ever [amicable divorce] so it was their observations and decisions to leave a potentially damaging situation which was starting to affect them. Kids aren't stupid.

Ex has suggested this morning to DS that they see each other after school this week. That sounds like a better alternative but DS was quiet and said he doesn't want to. It's what I'd prefer than the overnights at the moment.

This sounds like a much better idea and hopefully you can encourage your DS to feel positive about it.

Just a thought but I know some kids get very anxious and guilty about leaving their parents, could a part of it be that he worries about you when he and his brother aren't with you? Maybe it would help to tell him about all of the things you have planned for when he's with his dad (even if you have to make some up!).

It's a difficult one for you though, obviously you want your DS to feel happy and comfortable but at the same time he's only 10 and not really old enough to decide to essentially stop contact with his dad.

Ex has suggested this morning to DS that they see each other after school this week. That sounds like a better alternative but DS was quiet and said he doesn't want to. It's what I'd prefer than the overnights at the moment.

I wonder if it's because of their dad saying things about you/making them worry about money. I love the worry monster idea you do. Hopefully the school counselling will help him a lot too.

@RedRed9 I try to acknowledge his feelings and work him through them the best I can without any negativity towards his dad. I keep my venting for my DP Hes just so scared to speak to his DF about his feelings and as DP pointed out to me this morning, my 13yo is reluctant to even ask his DF for £5 lunch money. I think that's part of it, both boys don't feel they can speak freely to their DF so when I mention to him their issues he is reluctant to believe me.

@beachcomber70 I'm glad it's all worked out for your DS's. You're right, kids do make these decisions and listening to them is what's the most important. My priority is them.

@Bibidy I don't think they worry about me when they are there. Both know I work long hours and am constantly on the go. Plus, I try to show them I am as independent as possible; when the marriage ended I was determined to fill my life with stability, things for us to do and a career.

@BlueHarry I'm not sure it's the money thing with the 10yo...its the facing his DF and what he will say to him.

Their DF is always the victim in everything he does and points this out to whomever will listen; his kids, parents at football, mutual friends. He just doesn't have the ability to take responsibility for anything.

One thing that's clear is you're definitely well rid of this guy! He sounds an absolute nightmare.

Most definitely Blue.

I spoke with DS 10 after school yesterday. He said he had been feeling sad in school for most of the day. I asked if he'd rather just see his DF after school and at weekends in the day. The relief on his face was clear. He said "I was thinking that I could finish school and cycle to grandma's house and sleep there the night when you're at work". His grandma lives a 40 minute cycle away along a quiet river cycle path and that's still what he wants so it speaks volumes. After out conversation for the first time in a while he didn't write a worry in his worry monster.

I've also spoke to DS 13 and said we were floating a few ideas. He said that that option would be good because his DBs mental health comes first (they have been doing a lot on wellbeing in school). I explained that I was conscious about how this all affected him and he said that at the moment he feels fine.

Now I need to speak to the ex...

Thank you everyone for your comments, experience and advice.

That sounds like great progress. Your children sound lovely too. Good luck speaking to your ex op.