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Original poster

What did Alister Stuart actually say?

116 replies

PGtipsplease · 29/01/2020 18:47

I can’t find anything on google. He’s stepping down over judgement of errors on social media.

Any ideas? I really liked him.

OP posts:
KatyCarrCan · 30/01/2020 09:54

Shakespeare was racist but that wasn't a racist quote in the context of the play so I'm not sure why Shakespeare's racism is relevant. As a PP pointed out, the context is of all mankind being apes. It was directed by a white female character to a white male character.
It's not like the anti-Semitic remarks directed at Shylock.

leckford · 30/01/2020 10:02

It was a quote from Shakespeare, the woke getting hysterical. All humans are all descended from apes/primates. So an accurate quote. He should not resign.

Teaandcrisps · 30/01/2020 10:04

So if you're using high brow culture you can be a prick.

ItsGoingTibiaK · 30/01/2020 10:06

I think he'll be OK. Wasn't he sacked as presenter of Police, Camera Action when he was convicted of drink driving? Didn't seem to do his long-term career prospects too much harm.

Yorkshirelass444 · 30/01/2020 10:11

feel so sorry for AS- as someone said up-thread, he's used this quote before on a white guy. The offended party in this seems to be spoiling for a fight with a white man if you look at previous tweets- deliberately aggressive. ITNs knee-jerk reaction doesn't help anyone and risks causing unnecessary antipathy between people. i honestly don't believe that the offended party in this gives a shit about improving race relations. You risk people turning a blind eye to actual racism with behaviour like this.

WeHaveSnowdrops · 30/01/2020 10:12

Storm in a teacup. Intention is all and his intention wasn't racist.

Rhea1981 · 30/01/2020 10:14

I just despair at things like this. AS quoted Shakespeare, as he has before. People are looking for racism in everything. He didn't call anyone an ape. Clearly no racist intention but this man has jumped on a word and claimed racism to punish the person he's disagreeing with and ultimately silence him. Very sad but I think most sensible people know how ridiculous this is and will support AS.

chomalungma · 30/01/2020 10:19

All those people who think it is an over reaction _what do you think of his response when someone said that the PC brigade will call him a racist?

Supersimkin2 · 30/01/2020 10:26

The remark wasn't racist BUT it turns out the twitter user is mixed race, so AS had to go.

Angry/naked/raw Ape is one of those tropes about humanity that's been a constant in literature for centuries - basikerly, the human in her/his raw state, uncivilized, etc. (Kicked off in the Renaissance when simians were discovered.) Applied to entire human race for centuries by way of criticism for being uncouth - as with most animal metaphors.

It's got a long history of not being racist, but unfortunately for the rest of us, a few halfwitted thug racists have seized upon a similar word to use with a totally different meaning - viz. football chants.

Cherrypicking one of several meanings from a phrase to make serious accusations is always going to be difficult, especially when you're cherrypicking to try and prove the intention of the person who used it. Because generally you can't.

But you can accuse anyway.

GCAcademic · 30/01/2020 10:31

All the faux (i.e. white privilege) comments about it having a higher meaning are just like those who refuse to understand the link between monkey chanting/banana skins and racism towards black footballers.

Genuine question: are there actually people who refuse to understand monkey chanting and banana skins as racist? If so, that's shocking, but I don't see that as analogous with this situation, and think it's pretty disingenuous to imply that Stuart is comparable to some EDL type on the football terraces. I am not white myself, and I don't think it is at all helpful in the fight against racism to conflate what seems to have been a thoughtless mistake with neo-Nazism.

All those people who think it is an over reaction _what do you think of his response when someone said that the PC brigade will call him a racist?

Perhaps he thought that would be such a ridiculous distortion of his Tweet, the quote, and his intentions, that it was laughable?

If so, I do think that was very naïve of him, and that anyone who uses Twitter needs to be far more careful than he was about what they post, and who they engage with (not because this individual happened to be black, but because there are lots of people out there who delight in wielding the power to get others sacked).

WeHaveSnowdrops · 30/01/2020 10:32

I hope Shapland is really proud of himself. I expect he is.

I hope his 15 minutes of fame render him unemployable.

ShesGotBetteDavisEyes · 30/01/2020 10:34

I don’t think AS intended it as a racist remark but in the context it was originally used HOWEVER it was very silly to quote that to a black man and on Twitter for all to see. Maybe he didn’t notice the poster was black, it would seem like self-sabotage if he did!

Cam77 · 30/01/2020 10:35

Directing the word "ape" toward a black person, in virtually any context, but especially as part of a come back or 'diss' is ignorant and a stupid thing to do. Doesn't matter if the quote is from JK Rowling, Shakespeare or anyone else. Is he racist? Probably no more than any one else, but it was a very stupid thing to do.

Having said that other high profile figures have got away with stuff a lot more blatant. How the hell is that idiot Morgan still polluting the airwaves after his "ching chang chong" routine? As his cohost said, that crap stopped being funny in the 70s. There are half a million ethnic Chinese people in the UK, not to mention all other people of Asian heritage. Have a little self respect you ignorant prick.

Wellhellooothere · 30/01/2020 10:39

Depends - did he use one of the 1000's of Shakespeare's quotes available to him using the word 'ape' to just insult a black man on purpose? He had a lot of options/insults to choose from without using that one - and he's a bit of .a Shakey buff apparently, so I doubt he was at a loss to find one. And think he'd get away with it cos it's Shakespeare?

Or did he use it unthinkingly and in ignorance? Which, it could be argued for someone prolific on Twitter and SM, and frequently reporting on issues around racism, and mis-use of SM is incredibly naive?

Either way I don't think you have to be 'woke' to know that comparing black people to apes or monkeys is racist, and is something that actual racists actually do.

BIWI · 30/01/2020 10:40

@GCAcademic

Genuine question: are there actually people who refuse to understand monkey chanting and banana skins as racist?

Yes. There have been several threads on MN about this in the past, where people simply won't accept that this is racist.

@deydododatdodontdeydo.

I know Shakespeare wasn't referring to black people. But the point is, the use of this quote - to a black person - was insensitive to say the least.

This is like Danny Baker - who got sacked for showing a picture of a monkey baby when Harry & Meghan had Archie. He claimed he didn't intend it to be racist, because he didn't see it as racist - just that he was a collector of Victorian photographs. But he, as AS, should have known better, and they both should have thought about the wider implications of their posts.

This isn't about being 'woke' - it's about recognising that white people are massively privileged, and we don't have the right to tell non-white people that they shouldn't be offended.

WeHaveSnowdrops · 30/01/2020 10:43

This isn't about being 'woke' - it's about recognising that white people are massively privileged, and we don't have the right to tell non-white people that they shouldn't be offended.

If you feel people are being ridiculous (whatever colour they are) then it's ok to say so (whatever colour you are).

BIWI · 30/01/2020 10:43

Agree!

GCAcademic · 30/01/2020 10:45

@BIWI Yes. There have been several threads on MN about this in the past, where people simply won't accept that this is racist.

They must be lying. I doubt anyone could, genuinely, be this stupid. I can only think it's deliberate gaslighting.

IcedPurple · 30/01/2020 10:46

white people are massively privileged

What, all of them?

and we don't have the right to tell non-white people that they shouldn't be offended

"Being offended" is subjective, so no, nobody has the right to tell anyone what their personal feelings should be, regardless of skin colour. However, because someone feels offended that doesn't mean the intention was to offend, and in cases like this, it's the latter that counts, not the former. Or so at least it should be.

BIWI · 30/01/2020 10:48

@GCAcademic Nope. They weren't (all) lying. Lots of MNetters falling all over themselves to insist it's not racist. Just the same on the myriad gollywog threads.

Cam77 · 30/01/2020 10:51

This isn't about being 'woke' - it's about recognising that white people are massively privileged

Many white people, not all. A white working class boy growing up in an inner city housing estate is not as privileged as Obama's kids. Genuinely privileged middle class white people with kids at public schools telling the poor white working class how priviliged they are is not helping people grasp the concept of privilege.

scrappydappydoooooo · 30/01/2020 10:54

All humans are all descended from apes/primates. So an accurate quote.

Actually humans are apes. There are 8 species of hominidae, or Great Ape, still in existence. Tapanuli, Sumatran and Bornean Orangutans, Eastern and Western Gorillas, Chimpanzees, Bonobos and Humans. We haven't evolved out of ape classification at all.

That said, due to the historical context of ape/monkey being used as a deliberate racist slur against black people I would be very, very careful about using that type of terminology when referring to a black person regardless of how I meant it.

Actually, as I type that, I realise I probably wouldn't use it as an insult against anyone as I don't make a habit of throwing insults at people when debating political/current affairs.

prh47bridge · 30/01/2020 10:55

Ape chants - racist.

Throwing banana skins at black people - racist.

Golliwog - racist.

This Shakespeare quote - not racist.

Binterested · 30/01/2020 11:00

I wonder how the recipient feels now that they know this quote has been used before to others. It is a bit more nuanced now but the outcome is still binary.

Binterested · 30/01/2020 11:05

And my point is not that there isn’t racism in the world or that monkey chants at football and all that aren’t horrific. Just that this is a way of saying something about human nature generally which has been used through history and pre Darwin even ((before we understood there was more than a grain of truth in it!).

We now find ourselves finding an idiom fine to use with regard to me but not with regard to my neighbour - even if the discussion is a million miles away from racial politics. That feels odd. I understand why we have to do it but it’s a sign of things not being right.