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Forget about glass ceilings. Who remembers birthdays in your house?

41 replies

hambledon · 17/01/2020 19:37

Perhaps this is a well worn feminism topic but I thought I'd open it up anyway.

My mother was a 60s/70s feminist. I love and admire her for this. I was brought up with the sense that there is no limit to what I can achieve and with a real understanding of the struggles other women have been through to get the vote, equal pay etc. I salute them.

My mother (a single parent) thought that life was too short to stuff a mushroom. She also thought that hoovering, making cakes, going to the hairdresser were the the province of 1950s Stepford Wives. I totally get why she felt this way. She was born in 1939 and was excited and proud to throw off the (indisputably) awful strictures of post war womanhood.

I 100% support every effort to make sure that women achieve at the same level as men. The thing is though, after I had children I found out that households require at least the same number of hours spent on 'wifework' as achieving a salary outside the home. If you are not upper middle class and able to afford a nanny, cleaner, ocado and deliveroo how does this actually work?

I know how it works. The woman strives to achieve at work and then silently does the other stuff at home while inwardly wondering what is going on. Most feminist arguments don't discuss who buys MIL Christmas presents or packs the homework bags for school. They either breezily say it's not important (if you have the supreme confidence of the upper middle class woman who knows her home and children will tick along with regular injections of family money whilst insisting in a Bohemian manner that you don't care for such trivia) or they just employ somebody to do it and it then becomes totally invisible.

Running a home and family is WORK. Time consuming, tiring and quite skilled WORK. I totally acknowledge that women need access to money and representation and am very grateful for the women who work to make progress with this. But what about the vast number of hours and emotional/psychological burden of keeping a home and family running? MN has thread after thread of women saying they are doing this alone. The typical response is either person to person commiseration (which implies individuals face this issue alone with the occasional isolated posts of solidarity) or extremely fortunate middle class women saying that they don't do this stuff, they are proud slummy mummies etc etc and have partners who do the wifework.

This is not a problem for individual, lone women. It affects the vast majority of us. Most of us are struggling to keep our household running. Not just the cleaning but house maintenance, the medical appointments, the school meetings, the birthdays and Christmas.If you really don't think this is a burden for you it's because you have the money to outsource it or you have a very very very rare partner who does it and you have the confidence borne of an upper middle class upbringing for it not to bother you. But you are rare. Believe me it is rare that women don't carry the vast majority of wifework.

I really think this should be the next wave of feminism. Running a household is not trivial work. It's essential. It needs to be acknowledged as essential and indispensable for good mental health. Everybody in the world needs to come home to a place of refuge. We should be prioritising that as a societal value over paid work outside the home and acknowledging what it takes to achieve a happy and well run household.

OP posts:
needtogiveitablow · 18/01/2020 09:29

This is something I am currently struggling with. My house isn't tidy and I am not on top of running things at home due to working full time in a demanding career. DH simply doesn't see it, he'll complain that the house is a mess or that we aren't organised enough but then thinks he'll wake up the next morning and everything is done. In discussing this with friends someone gave me a quote that really has stuck "women are expected to work as though they don't have a home and children, and expected to run a home and parent as though they don't work" . I will do everything in my power to ensure my DD never feels like this

Grumbley · 18/01/2020 09:43

I agree @daisychain01. I think it's sad that the solution to many is to base their career decisions on their husbands incompetence and lazyness, how sad.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 18/01/2020 09:58

Honestly, I think the simple truth is that we can't have it all. No matter what the "all" is.

You can't have the Instagram perfect home and family life if both parents work full time. I just don't see how you can.

Compromise has to be made. Accept that one partner doesn't work or works part time, and accept the sacrifice to.pay or career prospects, or accept that home life takes a hit and cut corners or let things slide a bit.

In my experience, men tend to accept this, it's women who want everything perfect and run themselves ragged trying to achieve it.

We need to decide what is important and then make peace with letting go what isn't.

TheMemoryLingers · 18/01/2020 10:14

If you really don't think this is a burden for you it's because you have the money to outsource it or you have a very very very rare partner who does it and you have the confidence borne of an upper middle class upbringing for it not to bother you.

I think you are making a lot of generalisations, which I can understand if you are drawing from Mumsnet as your source. If you looked more widely, I think you'd find a different picture. We don't have children. I am the higher earner. My husband works part time and does most of the housework. We are working class and can't afford a cleaner. I am not at all house proud.

I see many women here who seem to feel that they must have children and must be the one in the relationship to take maternity leave, go part time, sacrifice their careers. But those things are choices, not obligations. We have shared parental leave now, but how many women are splitting their maternity leave 50/50 with a partner? Perhaps many are, but you don't see them on Mumsnet.

Camomila · 18/01/2020 10:28

I've known a few mums split shared parental leave - both teachers who wanted to go back in September (April babys)

I think mumsnet probably has a higher than average anount of women that bf past 6m, DS was still bf at 6m/9m and barely eating anything and I really didn't fancy expressing as it seemed exhausting (DH has horrible excema so was very happy that I stayed home and breastfed to reduce the risk of DS ending up with it too)

MoltoAgitato · 18/01/2020 12:55

I split my mat leave with my DH. To be honest it was quite difficult emotionally and I think undervalues the importance of the mother - infant bond. I was fortunate that DH bought DC to my work at lunch for a feed. But there were many plus points.

It was fabulous to swan out the door in the morning and come back to food ready and a tidy house, mind.

TheMemoryLingers · 18/01/2020 12:57

Molton Did your DH feel it helped him to bond more with your baby than he would have done otherwise?

TheMemoryLingers · 18/01/2020 12:58

Molto sorry (autocorrect)

JassyRadlett · 18/01/2020 13:02

This is not a problem for individual, lone women. It affects the vast majority of us. Most of us are struggling to keep our household running. Not just the cleaning but house maintenance, the medical appointments, the school meetings, the birthdays and Christmas.If you really don't think this is a burden for you it's because you have the money to outsource it or you have a very very very rare partner who does it and you have the confidence borne of an upper middle class upbringing for it not to bother you. But you are rare. Believe me it is rare that women don't carry the vast majority of wifework.

I’m a middle class immigrant with no family money. Husband lower middle class.

We share all these jobs because we bloody talk about them and from the get go I’ve refused to be a martyr.

JassyRadlett · 18/01/2020 13:04

And like Molto we shared the parental leave with both kids. I think that was incredibly important, actually, for him to be totally in charge of the day to day logistics for a while and to know what goes into keeping things ticking over when you have kids.

It wasn’t always easy, psychologically, but it was the best investment in equality in our relationship - and probably in the long-term health of the relationship - I could have made.

TheMemoryLingers · 18/01/2020 13:11

It does surprise me that more people don't take advantage of SPL although I can see it would take more planning and budgeting if the father were the higher earner. But it seems to be a vicious circle - as long as women feel they have to be the ones on leave, their salaries will fall further behind and so it will continue.

MoltoAgitato · 18/01/2020 15:26

Yes, I did think it helped him bond. But I think shared leave in the first year of life is only the start. It was the next 5+ years when they are utterly dependent on you that really changed the balance of equality. Those years of sleepless nights and nursery drop off when the children can’t do anything at all for themselves are a real slog, and with another maternity leave it’s easy to fall into default housekeeper role.

hambledon · 18/01/2020 21:44

*Thememorylingers
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I see many women here who seem to feel that they must have children and must be the one in the relationship to take maternity leave, go part time, sacrifice their careers. But those things are choices, not obligat*ions.

I am very cautious about this word 'choice' I hope catfromjapan doesn't mind me quoting her from another thread (long copy and paste to follow) but basically individuals make their choices based on what they think is possible for them. Choices are not equally available to everyone. Not just because of the law or economics (though that is a big factor)but because we are social beings. We generally do what other people around us do. Most people don't want to be different. It sets them apart.

We've gone completely mad over the 'magic' of the word 'choice'.*
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'Choice' isn't an either/or: in capitalism, it's a sliding scale. 'Choice' is shaded by compulsion and coercion more times than not - explicit, overt, implicit, hidden, fiscal, societal ...*
*
'It was her choice' is one of the most vacuous phrases to be wheeled out in contemporary politics. It's intended as a hammer to bring thinking on a political issue to a close, to assert finality and closure forcefully.*
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But it's meaningless.*
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If you truly believe in politics - in the idea that distributions of power are available to analysis and critique, and the implicit, concomitant, belief that such distributions are neither natural nor immutable, and if you further believe in progressive politics (the belief that power distributions can and must change) - it is crazy to foreclose analysis of power distributions through an absolute, non-nuanced ascription of full (not partial, not lacking) 'choice' whenever instances of analysis of people's actions under capitalism/patriarchy/whatever arise.*
*
It's a full-stop in thinking.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 18/01/2020 22:27

I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding about feminism and what it has achieved.

Women in each era had their own struggle, they had to break out of the expected mould and tackle the most important issue holding them back.
Unless you lived through that era, its difficult to look back and really appreciate what it was like for them. Its also really easy to forget that you have the benefit of hindsight and they didn't. They were acting in the face of opposition and an unknown outcome.

Men have had to do very little. Feminism hasn't been able to change men. Its up to men to choose to step up. Many of them have chosen not to.

daisychain01 · 19/01/2020 13:36

Men have had to do very little. Feminism hasn't been able to change men. Its up to men to choose to step up. Many of them have chosen not to.

Oh so true, men have had to be dragged kicking and screaming, and if left to them, why would they want to change the status quo which has largely been to their advantage:-

  • Go to work (where they magically find they have the advantage over women as they power through the best job openings, when their female colleague goes on Mat leave and has to work pt for a few years;
  • Come home with the expectation "I've been at work all day plus 90mins in gym I'm too tired to do Wiminz work
Etc

There has definitely been a shift in expectations brought about by women, and equally DSs now being raised to think differently about their role in the family (shared responsibilities not I am the provider, you're the care giver), but it invariably happens because women, with increased education and better job prospects, are railing against being treated like 2nd class citizens.

MN is a skewed reflection of The Majority, but it does shine a light in the dross that many women put up with (until they LTB!)

Aderyn19 · 19/01/2020 14:08

This is a small part of why I have been a sahm for so long - I didn't want to do a ft job and then come home and have the bulk of the house stuff to do too. And I know that's how it would have turned out - my DH is great when he's here but he spends a lot of time working. My job had more social hours and no traveling away from home, so I know it would mostly have fallen to me.
This way, I might have no career (which has other problems that I didn't give due consideration to at the time of decision making) but I do get down time and don't run myself ragged trying to do a job as well as run a home.
Sah isn't valued at all. There is an attitude that paid work is the only thing which is important

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