Friend not wanting to pay mat leave back NHS

[BrightnessFalls]

A dear friend who has had anxiety at times and doesnt like nursing anymore has told me that shes got a new job in the industry and they will pay her to do x amount of courses but its not classed as the nhs anymore. I didnt realise that lots of community jobs arent nhs anymore. I feel pleased that shes landed her dream job but absolutely gutted shes told me shes going to try not to pay her mat leave back. We get good mat pay and shes the third nurse Ive seen not pay it back. She changed the subject when i said youve only worked for them two years and you are switching jobs instead of going back to the NHS for the three months (or whatever it takes to pay back) I know its not my business but I do feel disappointed because I know shes going to blame it on PND which she did not have. Im a midwife myself so i feel like its rubbing it in.

I never thought id feel so bad about this and I know I have to get over myself!

I can’t help but think that were nursing a nicer, better staffed and more family friendly role than it currently is, your DF may not feel so anxious and unhappy about returning to it.

FWIW I have several nurse friends and it sounds like a bloody nightmare! Half of me wants to say your friend IBU to do them out of mat pay, but the other half thinks they deserve it for not having a supportive enough environment to encourage their staff back!

But there are loads of jobs to get you off the wards into different areas with more suitable hours. I dont think it takes that long to pay it back.

Well, it actually sounds like fraud, and is stealing money from the NHS which is already on its knees. Don't think I'd want a friend like that.

I've never come across anyone who didn't return to work for three months post-maternity leave precisely to avoid having to repay their maternity leave.

However, looking online at the NHS employers handbook, it has this section:

Failure to return to work
15.82 If an employee who has notified their employer of their intention to return to work for the same or a different NHS employer, in accordance with paragraph 15.14, 15.15 or 15.17 fails to do so within:

i) 15 months of the beginning of their maternity / adoption leave, or

ii) three months of the end of their shared parental leave,

they will be liable to refund the whole of their maternity, adoption, or shared parental pay, less any Statutory Maternity, Adoption or Shared Parental Pay, received. In cases where the employer considers that to enforce this provision would cause undue hardship or distress, the employer will have the discretion to waive their rights to recovery.

I completely and utterly agree with you and could never consider doing that. Unfortunately, I have come across a general mentality amoungst some staff and members of the public that NHS workers should rinse the NHS for all they can, simply because they can!

Sorry, I meant to point out in message that, depending on the approach your Trust takes, the handbook does say the Trust can waive their right to recover the money. I wonder if your Trust simply feels it's not worth the time and effort (though if your friend, and others continue to take this approach then I imagine they'll change their rules fairly fast!)

@BrightnessFalls - I believe you have to return to work for 3 months to avoid paying it back. I've worked with staff who saved all their annual from the two years covering the maternity leave, dropped their hours on return to work (to something like one day a week), then handed their notice in and had so much annual leave left that they've literally had to work a handful of days over the three month period. Whilst I also don't agree with that approach, at least it adheres to the rules and isn't outright fraud as @TildaKauskumholm points out!

Its been going on for years though. I suppise its like stretching mat leave coming back for a week then going off sick for months, coming back pregnant and going off again. Ive seen it all!😄😄

Apparently if you have pnd you can get out of it.

My SIL is a teacher and did this. I felt annoyed and like she's cheating the system, but I guess in the grand scheme of things there are worse crimes.

I chose not to go back to work...(teaching) but just put the money aside whilst I was on mat leave. And then paid it back. I also got two lots of SMP so I did get quite a bit more to save. I only paid back the OMP obviously.

I couldn't get too worked up about this, firstly as a midwife you don't seem too empathetic to the fact that not everyone uses it as a 'get out' clause. Secondly, she is remaining in nursing in a job which by the sounds of it would have been NHS before it was outsourced; therefore the government is paying for the company to deliver that service, if it hadn't been tendered out to the highest bidder then perhaps she would have remained in the NHS. 3 months is a long time if you are struggling, plus after working in HR in honesty more of a burden for people to return to a job they don't want for 3 months before jumping ship anyway.

This would annoy me if I'm honest. I only get SMP in my job, 6 weeks at 90% and the rest at £141 a week or whatever it is now. It means I can leave work at the end of my mat leave and not pay anything back but it does make mat pay a struggle to live off. I think if you work for a company that offers a good maternity package ( or at least better than SMP) you should honour the conditions. It would make a lot of women worse off if all companies went to SMP because of this.

I’ve never known anyone get out of paying back their maternity leave and I’ve been dealing with NHS mat leave for 6.5 years now. Are you sure she’s not going to come back for the 3 months and then leave? She’ll need to give notice before she can leave her hospital anyway and that notice can be counted as part of the 3 months. At the end of the day it’s not up to you, her managers will sort it out.

My SIL is a teacher and did this

How did she not pay her maternity pay back like the OP’s friend?

I think the rule about returning for 3 months is counterproductive. Wouldn't it be better for women who don't want to return to just say so, so the department can find a new employee rather than having a miserable, unproductive employee coming in and out for 3 months before leaving anyway? I don't really understand it.

@Squashpocket I agree. The thinking behind it is that it is an incentive to return to work, and the hope that those who are returning just for the 3 months because they cant afford to pay it back will decide to actually stay. The truth is that no one knows what will happen over maternity leave or if their circumstances will change, some might join and work the minimum qualifying period before taking mat leave and not returning; but the majority are genuine changes of heart. The NHS is haemorrhaging money from many places, I can't really get too worked up about a nurse who suffers from anxiety not feeling like they can return to work- not until they improve working conditions anyway.

No, its not that. She had a change of circumstances her husband got posted somewhere away from where she worked.

Has your partner ever worked away? To me that's even more of a legitimate reason to look for other work.

I don’t agree with not paying the money back, but I do think it’s a bit harsh to suggest that there’s always some other ward etc to work on. I’m a paeds nurse and have the choice of the ward I work on or a community post which hours wise would not work for me. I don’t particularly enjoy the ward anymore for various reasons but I don’t have much choice in sticking it out. I would never find an alternative job that pays the money for the hours I do. At the end of the day though even if I wanted to leave I would still go back and do my 3 months or whatever.

Honestly OP you don’t sound like a very nice friend. Nurses should stick together and be supportive to each other, not look for ways to knock each other. It’s bloody hard enough in the NHS without colleagues looking to stir things up.
Just be happy for her and remember she has worked hard for the NHS and I’m sure she earned every penny of that Mat pay ten times over.

I said fraud because OP said the friend was going to claim she had PND....so lying in order to get out of paying what you owe is surely still fraud?

Im not stirring and i am a good friend. It just doesnt sit right with me that you intentionally take the full matt pay knowing full well you arent coming back as well as the paid sickness during the pregnancy. I couldnt look my manager in the eye knowing i was doing that. And its not just your ward you have to pay it back to its literally any nhs job in the country doing any hours you fancy. Despite what alot of you think its not all back breaking. Anyway, Im disappointed because it was the plan all along and she’d barely been working a year. And it happens alot. I best go now before I out my myself and my department.

Tilda, thats what I said yes.

If her partner was posted assuming he might be military? So would be posted every 2-3 years, meaning she probably wouldn't be in any job for very long, and very much depends on the jobs going where she is moving to. If she isn't moving and is staying put, working shifts can be impossible with a partner away during the week. Surprising you are annoyed she took sickness during pregnancy, anyway, they will either make her pay it back or they won't.

The thinking behind it is that it is an incentive to return to work, and the hope that those who are returning just for the 3 months because they cant afford to pay it back will decide to actually stay.

I’d be surprised if that has ever actually worked.