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Climate change sceptics, come on over

36 replies

LayAllYourLoveOnMe · 02/01/2020 13:51

if you doubt or reject any of the key propositions about climate change namely:

It's happening
It's us
It's bad
We can do something

Please come on over and voice your doubts. I can't control the thread but I will try to gather information and reply respectfully and hopefully other like-minded people will try to do the same. And hey, if you're right and I'm wrong about proposition 1 (it's happening) then that would be fantastic! :)

My background is that I studied the subject (not an expert, just undergraduate level stuff). Then I set up a local Friends of the Earth group. Then I got dispirited about the insults and accusations levelled not at big multi-nationals but at anyone who voiced doubts.... I know what it is to be in a minority in a room where everyone else is virtue-signalling so I'm hoping to re-engage some people who 've given up and switched off.

OP posts:
YeOldeTrout · 03/01/2020 09:03

Nuclear energy waste is extremely hazardous, lasts almost forever and is stored unsafely. Oh, and often the raw fuel comes from dodgy or unstable regimes (eg., Russia Chad, Ukraine), but is not a renewable resource. Going very nuclear means economic & energy dependency on the bad guys for us in Europe. There's a Huge Lot to DisLike.

Climate change sceptics, come on over
Climate change sceptics, come on over
MangoFeverDream · 03/01/2020 09:46

Nuclear energy waste is extremely hazardous

It is stored safely onsite, like any other hazardous material. Funny you don’t care about the toxic metals in solar panels, which can leach out of broken panels during storms and are also hazardous to human health, like forever. Also, note that solar panels need replaced every twenty years or so. Do you have a plan for that waste disposal? You know you can’t put them in a landfill. Disused solar panels are piling up as we speak, it’s only gonna get worse. I do hope you care as much about that as you do nuclear waste.

Going very nuclear means economic & energy dependency on the bad guys for us in Europe

Hmmm, so do continue to get your natural gas from Russia then.

Also, Australia and Canada are major producers of uranium, assume that’s not a problem then?

We can reprocess nuclear waste if need be. But for the moment, we don’t. Also, promising advances in seawater extraction, which would effectively make it renewable. It’s not there yet but has been a promising area of research.

Pedallleur · 03/01/2020 10:16

Prob with nuclear is the build/decommissioning costs and what to with the waste. If the core is lethal for 10000 years where/how will it be stored. The industrial age has really accelerated early 20th century with the arrival of oil, petrochemicals, population growth. We are changing the earth v.quickly, 100 yrs not 1000s or millions of years

MangoFeverDream · 03/01/2020 10:34

Prob with nuclear is the build/decommissioning costs and what to with the waste

This is not a real problem. It is stored safely onsite, like any other hazardous industrial materials. Potentially it could be reprocessed for further use in the industry.

Building costs have spiraled, but this has solutions if the political will is there to make necessary changes. With the “climate crises” you’d think it would be!

Also note that solar panel farms are not legally required to have to factor in decommissioning costs up front, even though they also have toxic byproducts. Currently they are dumped
in third-world countries for “reprocessing” (I.e. their problem)

LayAllYourLoveOnMe · 03/01/2020 17:28

Still here, on trains all day....

OP posts:
Pedallleur · 03/01/2020 18:14

Who says nuclear waste is stored safely? It's stored at Sellafield in ponds and special containment behind armed guards at great cost to the taxpayer but what about in countries like Russia/China/India. Nuclear power was developed to produce weapons grade plutonium, power was a useful extra. The waste is lethal for decades/centuries. All this stuff, panels/electric cars etc are going to require a disposal policy (not dumping in Africa or at sea). Often wonder why we can't tip nuclear waste in inactive volcanoes where the lava should melt everything.

Muminabun · 03/01/2020 18:14

@MangoFeverDream really interesting posts and thank you op for this thread.

LayAllYourLoveOnMe · 04/01/2020 13:55

Hi Star, I think you ask really good questions.

Starting with the one about ice ages I think I have got the answer. In short, there are seven or eight different things that can make the climate change. One of these is carbon dioxide levels. When we look at all the past examples, the changes have happened slowly (except I guess where there is a catastrophe like a meteorite). The changes caused by our current CO2 emissions are happening fast.

OP posts:
LayAllYourLoveOnMe · 04/01/2020 13:57

Star I found this stuff online if you are interested. (Pasted). But basically you are right:there has been lots of change in the past -we just haven’t tried to survive it!

“What causes the Earth's climate to change?
Circular orbit
The British Isles had many glaciers, like this one in present-day Iceland, during the last ice age.
We think of the climate we enjoy today as normal, however the Earth’s climates are always changing.

At times, Britain has been hot enough for hippos to live in Norfolk. At other times ice has covered the country for tens of thousands of years.

Global climate change has usually occurred very slowly over thousands or millions of years. For further details look at our Climate through time poster or online map.

Today our climate is changing quickly by comparison.

Hotter or colder?
Here are some of the many factors that can cause the Earth's climate to get hotter or colder:

Strength of the sun
Umbrella © iStock/CraigPJ
Only about 40 per cent of the solar energy intercepted at the top of the atmosphere passes through to the Earth’s surface.
Almost all of the energy that affects the climate on the Earth originates from the Sun.

The energy emitted by the sun passes through space until it hits the Earth’s atmosphere.

Only about 40 per cent of the solar energy intercepted at the top of the atmosphere passes through to the Earth’s surface.

The rest is reflected or absorbed by the atmosphere. The energy output of the sun is not constant, it varies over time and it has an impact on our climate.

Changes in the Earth’s orbit
The Earth’s orbit around the Sun is an ellipse, not a circle but the ellipse changes shape.

Sometimes it is almost circular and the Earth stays approximately the same distance from the Sun as it progresses around its orbit.

At other times the ellipse is more pronounced so that the Earth moves closer and further away from the sun as it orbits.

When the Earth is closer to the sun our climate is warmer.

Circular orbit
Circular orbit. Elliptical orbit – when the Earth is closer to the Sun, its climate is warmer
Elliptical orbit – when the Earth is closer to the Sun, its climate is warmer.
Changes in the orientation of the Earth’s axis of rotation
Diagram of Earth showing angle of axis of rotation

The Earth showing angle of axis of rotation. When the angle increases the summers become warmer and the winters become colder.
The Earth rotates around an axis (imagine a line that joins the north and south poles) but the Earth’s axis is not upright, it leans at an angle.

This angle changes with time and over about 41 000 years it moves from 22.1 degrees to 24.5 degrees and back again.

When the angle increases the summers become warmer and the winters become colder.

Quantity of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere
The gases that contribute most to the Earth's greenhouse effect are: water vapour, carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, methane and ozone. (Photo: Getty Images)The gases that contribute most to the Earth's greenhouse effect are: water vapour, carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, methane and ozone.
These include carbon dioxide, methane and water vapour.

Of these three, water vapour makes the greatest contribution to the greenhouse effect because there is more of it.

These gases trap solar radiation (electromagnetic radiation emitted by the Sun) in the Earth’s atmosphere, making the climate warmer.

Carbon dioxide content of the oceans
The oceans contain more carbon dioxide (CO2) than the atmosphere and they can also absorb CO2 from the atmosphere.

When the CO2 is in the oceans it does not trap heat as it does when it is in the atmosphere.

If CO2 leaves the oceans and moves back into the atmosphere this can contribute towards a warmer climate.

Plate tectonics and volcanic euptions
Over time, plate tectonic processes cause continents to move to different positions on the globe.

For example, Britain was near to the equator 300 million years ago, and therefore was hotter than it is today. For further details look at our Climate through time poster or online map.

The movement of the plates also causes volcanoes and mountains to form and these too can contribute to a change in climate.

Mountain ranges formed by plate tectonics. Large mountain chains can influence the circulation of air around the globe, and consequently influence the climate. Warm air might be deflected somewhere cooler by the mountains.
Mountain ranges formed by plate tectonics.
Large mountain chains can influence the circulation of air around the globe, and consequently influence the climate. Warm air might be deflected somewhere cooler by the mountains.

Volcanoes formed by plate tectonics. Volcanoes affect the climate through the gases and dust particles thrown into the atmosphere during eruptions. The effect of the volcanic gases and dust may warm or cool the Earth's surface, depending on how sunlight interacts with the volcanic material.
Volcanoes formed by plate tectonics.

Volcanoes affect the climate through the gases and dust particles thrown into the atmosphere during eruptions. The effect of the volcanic gases and dust may warm or cool the Earth's surface, depending on how sunlight interacts with the volcanic material.

Ocean currents
Ocean currents
Global ocean currents. Oceans store a large amount of heat, so that small changes in ocean currents can have a large effect on coastal and global climate.
Ocean currents carry heat around the Earth.

The direction of these currents can shift so that different areas become warmer and cooler.

Oceans store a large amount of heat, so that small changes in ocean currents can have a large effect on coastal and global climate.

Vegetation coverage on the land
On a global scale, patterns of vegetation and climate are closely correlated.

Vegetation absorbs carbon dioxide and this can buffer some of the effects of global warming.

Meteorite impacts
Nowadays, most of what is on the Earth stays on the Earth; very little material is added by meteorites and cosmic dust. The only material lost to space is in space hardware.

However, meteorite impacts have contributed to climate change in the geological past; a good example is the Chicxulub crater, Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico.

Large impacts such as Chicxulub can cause a range of effects that include dust and aerosols being ejected high into the atmosphere that prevent sunlight from getting through. These materials insulate the Earth from solar radiation and cause global temperatures to fall; the effects can last for a few years (Kring, 2007).

After the dust and aerosols fall back to Earth, the greenhouse gases (carbon dioxide, water and methane), caused by the interaction of the impactor and its 'target rocks', remain in the atmosphere and can cause global temperatures to increase; the effects can last decades (Kring, 2007).

Sum of the parts
Each of the above factors contribute to changes in the Earth’s climate, however the way they interact with each other makes it more complicated.

A change in any one of these can lead to additional and enhanced changes in the others.

For example, we understand that the oceans can take carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere:

When the quantity of CO2 in the atmosphere increases, the temperature of the Earth rises.

This in turn would contribute to a warming of the oceans. Warm oceans are less able to absorb CO2 than cold ones, so as the temperature rises, the oceans release more CO2 into the atmosphere, which in turn causes the temperature to rise again

www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeology/climateChange/general/causes.html

OP posts:
LayAllYourLoveOnMe · 04/01/2020 14:03

Dragon yes I remember that prediction of an ice age.

The current scientific consensus has been going on a lot longer, is based on more evidence, don’t you think?

Is it that for you we are like the boy who cried wolf? Now there is a wolf but you’re no longer willing to listen? Because it all came to nothing with that other prediction?

OP posts:
RoundWithAFridge · 04/01/2020 14:06

I am with you OP, I am have a small carbon footprint and I don't like the behavior of strident quasi religious - often hypocritical - anxious, well meaning bullies ordering us all about.

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