Moving abroad (Canada in particular) vs staying in UK

[HopelesslydevotedtoGu]

We've been discussing whether to move abroad for ages, and can't seem to reach a decision.

The country we are considering is Canada, where we could get jobs and move on a work permit initially then gain PR and citizenship. Our careers are in demand in Canada and we could live in lots of different areas, not just the big cities. Looking at BC but could live in other provinces too.

There are various pros and cons, but the questions it boils down to each time are

THE BIG QUESTION

• is it good for our kids to have another citizenship? (dh and I would find it easy to get jobs abroad, we don't know if our kids will have the same options. In general countries seem to be becoming more selective about immigration, and we think climate change migration will exacerbate this, so our kids being dual citizens when they are adults will mean they will have more options in life. UK doesn't seem good at planning sensibly for the future, not sure if Canada any better but at least dc will have a choice of where to live!)

The other questions

• are the advantages of Canada better than seeing grandparents regularly? We have no extended family in Canada, we are wondering how much of a disadvantage that will be for our children (we are not very close to our parents ourselves, but our kids love seeing them. We currently see each set once a month. If we stayed in UK we would consider moving closer to one set of grandparents for the kids benefit, which would have pros and cons in terms of lifestyle. We would offer our parents the option to move to Canada on a family visa, however I think they would decline)
• is Canada a better place for kids to grow up? In terms of wellbeing, education, activities and in particular future opportunities. In the UK it feels like you have to earn a lot to have a good quality of life (which we do, but obviously we don't know what our dc will do as adults)

We keep going round in circles. I'd be grateful for any advice.

As the sibling of someone who emigrated long haul, have you considered who will support your parents as they age?

Yes DH and I have, as have our parents. All my siblings actually emigrated before I did, with our parents' blessing.

One of the things stopping me from moving home is the annual leave, you get 2 weeks, if you’re lucky 3

I don't know about Canada, but we're in the US and DH gets 25 days a year and in my last job I got 27. I've never had a US-based job that offered less than 21 days a year.

It's definitely something to look out for in any job offers, but it's a myth that Americans typically only get 10 days a year.

Is it Maine Lobster? If so I’d move there in a heart beat. Canada no thanks.

Yes it's Maine. I'd have happily moved to Canada too - depending on the area.

Managedmis and HoldMyLobster really? When I last lived in Canada the annual leave was 2 weeks or 3 once you’d worked for the company for 5 years. If that’s changed that’s really good news! Hmmm may change my view on moving back home. Here I get 28 days plus 8 days bank holiday but even if I got 25 days annual leave I’d be happy.

Beware that (massive generalisation here) Alberta is very Conservative and there are a lot of people who are gung-ho on oil, big business and capitalism. If that is not your scene you might want to stick to the main cities and research areas that are more Liberal. Having said that, people are friendly and there are a lot who have immigrated from elsewhere. I'd move to Vancouver in a heartbeat but it's very expensive.

We live in Canada. We like it a lot. It’s not hugely different from the UK though. I find the healthcare better, school system worse, weather is more extreme, either pretty hot or pretty cold! We are in Toronto which is expensive so our house is smaller than our one in the UK.

Ummm what else. There are splash pads in most parks and in the winter many turn into
Ice
Rinks which is super cool!

More awareness of racism etc.

No Ocado!

I’m happy to answer any specific questions. Our kids took a while to adjust- they were 6 and 10 and found it very hard at times.

Anyway feel free to ask me any specific questions!

Overall I’m glad we
Made the move.

We’re thinking of making the move to Edmonton.
I’m Canadian (as are the kids) but DH is not, so we’ll be talking to the embassy next week to see what needs to be done to allow him to work.
What about things like bank accounts etc? I wonder how to get all that set up. Do people rent at the start or what do you suggest? We plan to sell most of our belongings and ship some furniture.
Alberta isn’t all conservative, but it is quite.

You can live a very good life in Canada on a professional wage in a smaller city. My cousin makes circa 80k, owns a large, detached house, wife stays at home, they run two cars, and their kids do sports, swimming, dance, gymnastics, etc. No family help. They don't live in Toronto or Vancouver though. The key is to find that in demand job in an affordable area.

@Savingforarainyday
Is a bigger house and yard really the be all and end all?
We aren't looking for a huge house for quality of life, I do worry a bit that we might not fit in as we aren't into the "north american dream" of a huge house that some acquaintances who have emigrated to Canada talk about. For us improved quality of life means beautiful surroundings that we have time to enjoy, healthy outdoors lifestyle with outdoors hobbies, not having to work too much, enjoyable job, feeling confident with the schools and healthcare. I'm not sure if Canada is the best place for some of these factors, people have commented lots of cities feel 'car centred' and you drive everywhere, and a lot of obesity, so I worry it will not feel outdoorsy in the way we want.

Whereabouts in BC were you thinking?
We don't have a specific area in mind yet but are currently reading about Vancouver Island and places around Kelowna.

I also disagree about opportunity- here, we are spoiled for choice when it comes to university etc. The student loan system is much more manageable here.
This is worth considering, thanks. I feel that the options for people who don't go to uni in UK are quite limited- do you feel this is better in Canada?

It is very very difficult raising children on my own. As in, birthdays, Christmas...its generally just us ( and friends). I feel so guilty that my nieces and nephews have big family Christmases, while I've deprived my kids of that
Although we have extended family in UK we have always spent Christmas alone, there are quite a few issues with our parents and siblings that make the relationships difficult. When our eldest was born we thought about moving closer to extended family to try and build up those relationships (not our parents or siblings, more removed relatives) but the areas they live in are not great for us to move to for various reasons and we didn't know how much time and energy they would have for us. Our kids would love to have more extended family contact.... but then we only have the family we have.

@HoldMyLobster
Great advice

What do you enjoy? What makes your life stressful that you'd like to leave behind? What makes it fun that you'd like to move towards? Are there areas of Canada where you can meet these yearnings and also get jobs?
Enjoy- time together, time outside, sports and active hobbies, beautiful surroundings, feeling part of a community.
Stress- air and noise pollution, feeling unappreciated at work (UK public sector), traffic, crime, thoughtless people littering etc

@Flower777
healthcare better, school system worse
What do you find better and worse about them? In particular the schools? As Canada as a whole does v well on international PISA rankings, and we hope it will be a positive move educationally.

Alberta is very Conservative and there are a lot of people who are gung-ho on oil, big business and capitalism. If that is not your scene you might want to stick to the main cities and research areas that are more Liberal.
Yes this is not our scene....

@Rtmhwales
I'd suggest east coast (the Maritimes)
Yes Maritimes areas look good too, is there anywhere you would particularly recommend? I'm finding it hard to find which areas have great schools, which is one of our priorities.

There is an immigration stream for my profession so we wouldn't need to apply through the regular points system for PR (although once we were living and working there we would also get more points than before emigrating).

Don’t tar all of Alberta with the conservative brush. Edmonton is reasonably liberal.

I went to school in Canada and now I work with school age children. I like that Canada goes up to grade, your just that little bit older and more mature when you’re thinking about your next steps to college or uni. I was quite shocked that here we expect children at 16 to know what they want to do. I also find the pressure of GCSEs is so much more here. Of course I was stressed about exams in grade 12 but the amount of stress in the 16 year olds I work with here seems so much more.

There is very much an active outdoor life, especially in the Vancouver area. Vancouver Island is beautiful, so is Kelowna. You can absolutely enjoy the outdoor lifestyle in both those areas. You will need a car though as was said earlier, public transportation is not very good, especially once you leave the city, but this is because Canada is so big, with long distances between cities and towns.

Sorry, up to grade 12!

The most boring place I have ever lived, plus I did not find it welcoming in the least and the weather was terrible.

DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE BEING ABLE TO LIVE AND WORK IN THE COUNTRY, SCHOOLS OR HEALTHCARE. It is an horrific process.

Do you speak French?

Montreal was my experience. English people not well liked. I came from London and it was a huge culture shock.

Rome, Paris, London... all so much easier. This was awful for me and so isolating and I spoke French well.

The French accent was so grating, I really, really hated it.

I'm British but live in Calgary, I have a Canadian partner but no kids. I love it here but I am very VERY outdoorsy and spend most of my free time hiking in the mountains, skiing in winter and camping in the summer.

If you don't like the cold and aren't really into snowshoeing/skating/skiing/boarding/hockey, or basically anything involving snow and ice, there isn't a lot to do outdoors in the winter - and the winter is long. Here in Calgary it starts snowing in early October and pretty much doesn't stop until May. The winters are truly brutal, in February 2019 the average temperature in Calgary was -18 degrees C. It didn't get above 0 for the entire month (and was only actually 0 very briefly on one day), and the coldest recorded temperature was -29, not counting the wind chill. It snowed on 25 out of the 28 days of the month.

I'd agree with a PP who says that the cost of living very much depends on where you are. Vancouver is insanely eye-wateringly expensive. Calgary too is not cheap, property in nice neighbourhoods is very expensive and the cost of groceries and toiletries, particularly decent quality fresh food, is insane - 2-3x that of the UK, and the choice in the supermarkets not nearly as good. There is no Lidl/Aldi, and no Waitrose/M&S. I'm back in the UK for Christmas and nearly cried with happiness in the M&S Food Hall The only thing that's really significantly cheaper here is petrol.

I don't know what you do for a living but you need to be sure that your qualifications are valid here. Each province can have different rules, but I know someone who was a qualified teacher in the UK but wasn't allowed to teach here in Alberta because they didn't have a full Bachelor's degree in Education. There have also been significant job losses in the province in recent years in the oil and gas sector which has had enormous impacts.

It sounds obvious but distances here are truly huge, and a lot of places really are very very remote. If you want to live somewhere with good job prospects, good amenities, culture, lots to do, an international airport within a reasonable distance etc. etc. then you will likely have a considerably higher cost of living. You definitely need a car, public transport outside of the city here is almost non-existent.

I really love it here, but mostly because I love a very outdoorsy lifestyle and having easy year-round access to the mountains and the National Parks of Banff, Yoho and Jasper. I adore this corner of Alberta, it's unbelievably, stunningly beautiful, but I wouldn't live in any other part of Canada except maybe Vancouver Island (swap the snow for rain ). My partner has family in Southern Ontario and the Greater Toronto area but crazy traffic, eye-watering cost of living and no mountains = no thanks. There are an awful lot of things I miss about the UK too, and I don't think I'll stay here forever.

the weather was terrible.

It's called seasons.

Montreal was my experience. English people not well liked.

Well, don't go to Quebec unless you speak French, clearly. They are their own breed. The rest of Canada is nothing like them.

I agree, do not move to Montreal/Quebec unless you speak fluent French.
It will not end well.

Quite a lot of kids from where I live go to Montreal to college. They seem to do OK even if they don't have great French. But I'd certainly be working on improving my French if I planned to move to Montreal or Quebec City. I do love both cities, and would consider moving there.

make sure you get amazing holiday allowance if you do move - we had to move back as standard was 10 days a year from companies which meant I could travel home to see parents once a year and that was it for my holidays for the rest of the year :( not good quality of life at all in that respect.

Errr, all those commenting on my French and living in Montreal I speak fluent French and worked for a French company for 15 years and lived in Paris.

First day 'Au Revoir' (Goodbye) Them, 'Bonjour' (have a good day)

It is a VERY special type of French and the official language. They consider their French to be superior to French French.

My friend came over to visit and said 'This place is sinister'

Anyway, I only lived there for 3 years, got married there too. That is my experience as OP asked.

I agree on the holiday allocation, that's definitely one of the worst things - I negotiated hard when I started working and took less money in return for significantly more holidays, but that really isn't standard. Most people I know are on 10 days plus statutory days which is rubbish even if you're not trying to fit in visits to and from family and friends abroad.

There are very small pockets of liberalism in Alberta... but not many. From your description op, you would suit Calgary or towns west of. But what is your industry in reality? The generic noc code ‘in need’ isn’t across the country and in all honesty, it may only be possible to pick up employment in a very few places.
Alberta is currently experiencing some issues (read lay-offs) in both health and education, as a result of the new provincial government, and there is at least some support for a deeply misguided ‘Wexit’ in an attempt to retain the last vestiges of wealth from oil and gas.
One of my dd’s is in BC at school and has much milder weather in the interior. We are still digging out from a two foot snow dump just before Christmas and Hwy 1 is like driving on a backroad travel track. It’s quite mild though, at around -18 for a week or so. When we were visiting universities with dd we left -30 Alberta and arrived in BC where spring flowers were blooming.
Re outdoor lifestyle - hugely depends. My town legit has the probably the highest percentage of Olympian’s per capita than anywhere else I can think of. In summer the hiking is the best in the world (but mind the bears) - but equally I spent four days in the backcountry over Canada Day and hiked one pass in a four hour blizzard. We have awesome skiing though... kids here are either downhill ski racers, mountain bikers, biathlon (nordic ski), hockey (ice, obv) figure skaters, gymnasts, rock climbers or dancers. Or all of the above. Oh or swimmers. Our town is not that big. But it’s pretty full on in terms of sport and rec.
It’s also insanely expensive as everyone else comes here to vacay, or oil and gas second homes. So no, I don’t own a big house.
And yes, I had to work for my company for three years before I qualified for more than 10 days annual vacation. It’s now 15 days until I have been here 10 years.
The citizenship thing isn’t a big deal. Only one of our family of five has dual citizenship (middle kid because he happened to be born in Canada) - the rest of us just have PR. I can’t be bothered to sit the tests so will just apply at 55 instead. Voting in Alberta is irrelevant for me as our small community won’t dent the blue even if no one votes for them.
The only downside to not having citizenship is the other kids can’t compete nationally for Team Canada.

I'm sure I'll be scorned mercilessly but have you considered Scotland OP? I live in the central belt and have a brilliant quality of life, or at least I think so.

Reasonable housing, excellent local schools (both state and private), easy access to cities and amazing countryside/outdoor sports, weather is nowhere near as brutal as parts of Canada, easy access to the rest of the UK and Europe. Our local NHS has never let us down, but we do also have private healthcare through DH's work. It depends what work you do, but honestly we have a fantastic quality of life here.

We would earn a lot more elsewhere (finance/law - could live in London, NYC, Boston, Zurich etc and earn more) but we like where we are. I struggle to think of any aspects of our quality of life that could be better tbh. In fact, we don't get Ocado here

I lived there for 5 years with 2 DC who were 6 and 3 when we moved.
They have memories of summers at the beach and water parks, camping with smores at the campfire, playing outside often, winters building snowmen, tubing etc and Halloween never compares once you have lived in North America.
I remember feeling homesick, out of the loop at social gatherings. I almost never laughed in that helpless, from the gut way, I found people to be superficial, appearances were everything as in having the best kitchen, the perfect cupcakes the best appetizers for parties. At times I felt like I'd wandered on to the set of Stepford Wives.
We eventually came back as I figured a happy mum was better for my kids than the outdoors life they enjoyed.
I haven't regretted coming back for a second, it gave my kids a broader outlook and great memories so was probably worth being (almost) financially bankrupt.
I would advise against putting all your eggs in one basket and rent your house out to see if it suits first.

Forgot to mention we had great dental and health care but that was mostly due to the fact I worked in health care.
I was less than Impressed with the education in elementary, we loved the fact they were easy going about taking them out for holidays. But the teaching seemed lazy and didn't seem to change, bullying policies seemed non existent.

@Mrscaindingle I grew up in Alberta and when I go back that's a bit how I feel. Outside of my family people are friendly but distant. I've heard this said about Calgary by others. I can't comment on other cities.