Those who work with or in Social Services

[Penguinshame]

Inspired by another thread, can someone kind of summarise why parents might make choices which involve them losing custody of their children? Especially when it has been spelled out to them what they have to do?

There must be a rationale - even if not logical it must make sense somewhere?

Or is this just the product of a society which protects men over children?

OK I guess you're talking about women who are told to keep certain men away from their children and don't. Is that what you mean?

If that is what you mean then the answer is probably

1. They don't really believe that ss will take their children away and think they will be able to make excuses as to why they should be allowed to associate with certain men

or

1. They care more about having the man in their life than they do about having the child in their life.

If I had to guess i'd say most women fall into the first category, especially young mothers.

As pp said they often want the man more than the children, I've seen this so many times, they just can't stay away.
It's sad because these women are groomed and manipulated by awful men.

Also drugs & alcohol, they often can't give it up and lose their children

Many women I see haven't had the best examples of parenting and just don't know how to be better! Despite instructions and court orders they just don't have the skills which may seem obvious or simple to others. This is often a result of attachment status and ACE's

You could say the same for parents addicted to substances or alcohol or who otherwise are unable to affect sufficient, sustained lifestyle changes enough to keep/get back their children. They want to and cannot. Perhaps they could and don't want to.

Yes it's a valid point about the women being groomed and manipulated by awful men.

I have a close family member who is currently going through this at the moment. She is being groomed and won't listen to those around her including social services and her family. She will very likely lose her baby soon, it's really sad, but the baby will have a better life at least.

It's not as simple as the woman wants a man more than her DC (not in most cases).

Exploitation, grooming, emotional abuse, childhood neglect resulting in disorganised attachment and a history of other reasons leave women in positions where they cannot parent properly and keep their DC safe.

99% of abusive parents love their children. They just follow their pattern of behaviour laid out by how they grew up themselves. They are emotionally unable to undertake the work to be a protective and active parent. Its simplistic to say sort your shit out and look after your DC.

I work in social services. Often it's sadly a cycle of abuse. You spell it out very clearly to the parent, often over many months or years, and it can be frustrating that they just don't seem to get it! Usually when you hear about their own childhoods, the things they suffered are awful. They can sometimes understand, in theory, that a dirty and cold house, domestic violence, drug use etc are so harmful to children. But deep down there's an acceptance of it, it's just their normal.

Not trying to make excuses. I look after my own child very well and can't understand why you wouldn't do your absolute best. But I also know that some mothers are genuinely heartbroken to lose their children. They were just incapable of getting it together in time.

In my experience when this happens the women have often experienced such traumatic and abusive childhoods themselves that they see “safety” and familiarity in these abusive men and don’t have the capabilities to leave the abusive relationship. It’s incredibly hard to leave an abusive relationship where someone has destroyed you then add in that they may not have the support to be able to do it and have never been made to feel that they worth anything so have no internal resources to draw on.
In my experience the women don’t care more for/love the men more than they do for their children but they don’t have the abilities to be able to protect their children; they may desperately want to but they don’t know how to break free from this relationship where they have been controlled for so long. Even if they can then there’s a high likelihood of getting with someone else who is abusive as it is what they know and most likely mirrors their early relationship with their parents which is the blue print for our future relationships

Some surely manage to over come their abusive childhoods and manage to break the cycle of abusive relationships.
Often when women do leave these men, they then face family court, and these ,en are allowed to continue the abuse of the same women in court, gain access and sometimes custody of the children and continue to abuse the mothers further. I don't u crest and why some social workers support abusive men and consider them to be better parents for the children than the women that are struggling to protect those children from those violent men

What @Fizzypoo said.

The people I know who had children taken into care were care leavers themselves. It was normal to them. Not ideal obviously but not a huge, intolerable thing because in their world going into care is not the worst thing in the world, it's just one of many not great outcomes.

It’s so desperately sad.

That’s interesting about parents in that situation, not actually believing that they could lose their children. I don’t know how the mere threat of that doesn’t scare the crap out them.

That’s also interesting re grooming and control from men and the inability sometimes to break away.

If you were abused and neglected and smelt, weirdly, although you'd like to be clean and warm, actually you would feel safe and secure smelling like your childhood neglect. This wouldn't be a conscious choice or decision. This would be your base line of comfortable. Just like parents act out how they were raised as it feels natural and comfortable.

I know many care leavers who are excellent parents @WendyMoiraAngelaDarling when LAs and foster carers put in the work outcomes for care leavers rise dramatically. I think your comment is unfair if I'm honest although do agree cycles can be repeated. Care leavers get stigmatised and discriminated against - it's to simplistic to group them together and say it's not the end of the world for them. One of the main reasons care leavers have babies is to fill emotional voids and create love. They do absolutely care and are heartbroken if they lose a child.

It's amazing what can be normal to someone if it's all they've known. I've seen women controlled and abused by their partner in all kinds of ways and be unable to understand the problem even when spelled out. Their expectations of what a normal relationship is are so wildly skewed (usually by a combination of poor upbringing, being a care leaver, and grooming/repeated abuse) that it can be hard for an outsider to comprehend. Remember too these mums can be young, often in their teens.

Also common are women who have been brought up to believe that you put your man first whatever, often they will have been neglected in favour of their own mother's partner and again to them this is sadly normal and the right thing to do.

Pps are right, it's not as simple as choosing man over children in the way you would probably think of it.

Social services became involved with my family due to severe domestic abuse that went on for over a decade.

I was petrified of my now exdp, who regularly beat/raped me. My social worker forced me into counselling before I was ready which has had horrific consequences for my mental health.

Myself and my children weren't treated like victims at all. We were treated like criminals/just a number.

I wouldn't trust a social worker as far as I could throw them.

it's to simplistic to group them together and say it's not the end of the world for them.

I did no such thing. Hence the sentence "the care leavers I know".

If you have been in a loud, violent, dirty, turbulent household for your formative years, that has become your ‘norm’ so it may well be difficult for you to break away from.

Yeah I just don't believe you know a group of care leavers who weren't that upset when their DC were taken away. I just cannot comprehend that with my professional and personal experience.

They just follow their pattern of behaviour laid out by how they grew up themselves. They are emotionally unable to undertake the work to be a protective and active parent

In fact it's very similar to what you yourself said in a previous post @Fizzypoo...

I work alongside social workers. We try to work from the principle that people do the best they can at the time with the resources they have.

In some cases women haven't bonded properly with their child. Mostly often they are victims themselves or are enacting their own childhood experiences and simply don't feel able to be separate from their partner.

We ask some very damaged women to parent their children in a way that they may have never experienced. You cannot just instruct someone to parent with low criticism, unconditional emotional warmth and provide a stable, consistent home with boundaries that meets all basic needs whilst at the same time offer almost no support or mentoring or guidance.

Some parents may have had extremely chaotic, deprived and abusive childhoods before falling victim to abusive, exploitative partners. However much they may desperately wish to be a good parent, and however much they love their children, they are not able, supported or resourced to change things for the next generation.

These parents then have to deal with the sense of emptiness, failure and guilt that having their children removed brings. They experience further emotional harm and struggle. They never really stood a chance.

Often the mothers have themselves been brought up in difficult circumstances or are otherwise vulnerable and therefore easy prey for aggressive men who want someone to control. It is a vicious circle of low self esteem, lack of assertiveness and frustration. They may have a low level of education, poor school attendance, mental health or cognitive issues and a reluctance to engage with or be sceptical of professional support services. It is not uncommon to bounce from one unhealthy relationship to another and sadly children are often a consequence but not a priority in this lifestyle.

It's also the case that parents are told "stuff them, they can't tell you what to do" just as they have been told about the police/SWs/teachers etc all their lives. There are some seriously unhelpful people with conspiracy theories around who are not the parents but who are doing them a disservice.

I know of a mother that couldn't give a shit about her children. Her husband was caught sexually abusing them with her present and she has stood by him with all three children being taken away and a pending court case. She has been selling their clothing and items on Facebook and just doesn't seem fussed. The children have been placed with her parents so they can't have raised her too badly otherwise they wouldn't be awarded care of the kids. She's a liar, lies about everything, used to abuse drugs (probably still does) and has gone from one relationship to another having kids with every single guy she has met (7 in total, only three were in her actual care at the time of this disgusting find) and even with social services involved, no one noticed the abuse that was going on! Not all women have had terrible upbringings and been manipulated by men. Some are just rubbish mothers, selfish and can't see life beyond a man for whatever reason. It would be a sad day for me if I ever thought more of a man than my own DS. I'm married and love my DH but you can bet your house if I had to choose, I would be choosing my DS without a second thought! How on earth anyone can put their kids last is bizarre to me

Yeah I just don't believe you know a group of care leavers who weren't that upset when their DC were taken away. I just cannot comprehend that with my professional and personal experience.

I wonder if you're confusing me with another poster as I said nothing like they "weren't that upset"? I said due to past experience it wasn't an intolerable outcome for them. In fact, again, what I said was pretty close to what you said. Neither did I say I knew a "group of care leavers". I was speaking of the few I know and that is. You seem to be purposely misunderstanding my posts. You are making yourself look a bit silly so should just stop digging at me really.

I too have worked in social care extensively, albeit with old age cases; seeing as we are boasting about professional experience.

Essentially, trauma explains a hell of a lot of it.