Trans People in Women Only Safe Spaces - please help me to understand

[WinstonSG]

This is a genuine question to try and broaden my understanding of a complex issue.

My stance is that the risk of having a blanket rule around those that identify as women being allowed complete access to women only safe spaces, is putting women at risk due to the potential for predatory men to take advantage of this.

My issue is not with trans people. I support their right to live without prejudice and discrimination.

To me, this then comes down to who's rights matter more: females or born males that identify as women.

It seems either option causes harm to each group. Again, no issue with trans people, but a blanket rule that places women at risk (because of predatory men saying they identify as women in order to gain access to those spaces) and increases their vulnerability surely can't be the right answer?

Offering people who have been convicted of a crime the ability to elect between sharing a cell in the female estate or sharing a cell in the male estate seems an unlikely policy for so many politicians to support?

I agree, but what about those that aren't predatory and genuinely identify as women. What about their rights? Are they secondary? I am in no way trying to be goading, just looking to have genuine discussion around this as I don't know what the right answer is, or if there even is one.

I agree, but what about those that aren't predatory and genuinely identify as women. What about their rights? Are they secondary

How do you identify those individuals?

Can you expand on the question? I agree we all have human rights unless those rights impinge on others, and we all have responsibilities.

@UtuNorantiPralatongsThirdEye I can't think of any way to do this. I guess this is part of the dilemma.

I think part of the problem is that a small group of trans people have kind of ruined it for other trans people - the ones who were previously just going about their life, in women’s clothes, probably using women’s facilities in a low key way. Ok so other women probably knew they were trans but by and large we’re a polite group and as long as they were coming in, using a loo and heading out again, no drama was had.

But then you had a few very vocal people like Jessica Yaniv, that guy with the beard who calls himself a woman etc, all demanding access to women’s spaces, shouting about how they would ask young girls about tampon use, asking women to wax around their penis etc and it makes women think “oh dear if this is the thin end of the wedge, we’d better stop all trans people from using women’s spaces” even though it had probably never been an issue before.

So these new outspoken trans people have basically made life for other, more under the radar trans people, really hard.

@OneEpisode

But how can it be decided who's rights should be protected over other vulnerable groups?

One rule of thumb is that in matters of consent, No trumps Yes.

So a woman saying No I don't consent to males in a female single sex space overrides the wish of the male to insert himself in a female space.

And life ain't fair. We all have to suck up things we don't like or think are unfair.

One male feels unsafe in a male prison because he feels like a female.

Multiple females feel unsafe with a male who feels like a female being in a female prison.

Male gets moved to a female prison.

^^ Is the gist of this. Particularly confusing, when none of these male criminals gave hints whatsoever of wanting to "transition" before they committed the crime and sentenced to/or in prison.

Out of interest, has there even been a (non-surgery) biologically born woman who identifies as a male transferred to a male prison at their request? Never looked it up but would be interesting to know..

^ Particularly confusing, when none of these male criminals gave hints whatsoever of wanting to "transition" before they committed the crime and sentenced to/or in prison.^

Please replace 'none' with 'some' in the above sentence

To me, this then comes down to who's rights matter more: females or born males that identify as women.

Take the last four words out and re-read. You will find your answer.

The distinction drawn between male people and female people is not purely about social convention. It is reflective of fundamental physical differences between the two, and of the implications of those differences. We have women’s prisons for the same reason we have women’s toilets, women’s refuges, women’s changing rooms, women’s hostels – to keep women safe from those male-bodied people who might do them harm. To keep women safe from people with penises who might use those penises to do things to women that women do not want to happen,.

Thank you James Kirkup.

Transwomen are afraid men will attack them. Women are afraid that men will attack them, potentially rape them and that they could become pregnant.

So for me I think a 3rd space, for male transwomen is required.

Male prisoners who identify as women could solve their problem in advance, by not committing a serious crime. Most criminals do not get custodial sentences so if you do, you've done something pretty heinous (with the exception of some property/financial crimes such as the guy who got 14 years for manipulating LIBOR). As such I have no sympathy. Keep out of serious trouble and you won't need to worry about what wing of a prison you're in.

There is no issue here that cannot be sorted out by the provision of third spaces.

The problem is that trans activists are not happy with third spaces. Because they believe that the validation of trans women as women is more important than the safety, privacy or dignity of natal women.

Transwomen are not women they aren’t men they are transwomen. End of!

But how can it be decided who's rights should be protected over other vulnerable groups?

Are we talking about rights or desires here? Everyone has a human right to safety. It is not a human right to be able to access spaces set aside for vulnerable people of the opposite sex. That is a desire, and one that impacts the actual rights of others.

I’ve heard the phrase ‘women only safe spaces’ mentioned a lot on MN. Does that mean changing rooms and toilets, things like that? Just curious. Our local cafe has recently changed their toilets from a male toilet with a urinal and a cubicle (I asked DH) and a female toilet with two cubicles to two unisex toilets (with sink etc, like a home bathroom) and a unisex disabled/baby change room. Is this not the way to go?

I agree, but what about those that aren't predatory and genuinely identify as women/Jewish/innocent/bi. What about their rights? Are they secondary?

What difference does it make how a man identifies while in prison - or anywhere else, for that matter?

If a man is in danger in a male environment, then it is up to that male environment to ensure his safety.

Prisoners identified by other prisoners as grasses or as child rapists are already protected by the prison establishment, by segregating them from prisoners who may harm them. If a male prisoner believes that he is at risk by virtue of his self-designated identity, then there is already an established way of protecting him, whatever that self-identification may be.

I would be ok with a post operative trans woman who has obtained a GRC through current system for genuine gender dysphoria (as opposed to autogynaephilia etc) and will have had counselling and lived as a woman (though not possible to change sex) for some time having access to women's spaces. Though not women's sports (due to male puberty giving a huge advantage). That's just me though - I haven't seen any evidence that these kinds of post operative trans people (who clearly want to blend in) have a similar violent/sexual crime danger profile to men, but I would be very happy to be corrected on this if there is evidence about it.

Many women would not want to share a segregated same sex space with someone with a penis - which is why third space is required.

Retaining a penis is both tricky from the point of view of women's protection, since they are used as a weapon against vulnerable women, but it also suggests an element of lack of commitment/ hedging one's bets and leaving it open to going back to living as a man and/or retaining some level of masculinity. Either you genuinely hate your own body and want as feminine a body as you can obtain, or you just like dressing and seeing yourself as a woman (whether full time or part time or in specific situations)- the first elicits far more sympathy for your feels, to be honest. The second is just having a gendered fantasy about being a woman without wanting to follow through - you can have your own bathroom if there is space, but not appropriate for you to be playing at being a woman and trying it on for size, in our spaces.

Trans women can do what women did: set up their own safe spaces, refuges, services etc. It is a bloody cheek to demand access to female spaces, especially those for vulnerable and traumatised women. And instead of turning on women who defend their own spaces, why don’t TW address the issue of male violence which affects both groups.

@GrannyBags it's hospital wards, prisons, domestic violence shelters, homeless shelters, as well as toilets and changing rooms.
Places where women are vulnerable and being single sex gives some peace of mind.

Its a real pity that men, irrespective of identity and presentation, just cannot be trusted to be respectful, non creepy, nonviolent, non pervy..... Of course many individuals can be trusted, but generally, I'm jumpy as hell sharing with unknown people of the male sex. How do I know they're someone who means no harm? My assumption is, if they want to be somewhere where they know they're not welcome, then they're clanging all the bells and waving all the red flags.

Why do they need to enter women's spaces?

1.Because it makes them feel better about themselves.

Females should not be put at risk for men's feelings. Also, if it becomes the norm for men's facilities to be men's and transwomen, then they shouldn't feel so out of place and should feel more like they belong.

1. They are at a risk of male violence.

Lots of men, disabled, asd, elderly, gay, goths, non gender conforming, etc are at risk of male violence. We don't let any of those groups in women's facilities. We need to be cracking down on these violent males to make the whole world a safer space for all. Not making women shoulder the burden.

I agree that those born male should not be taking part in women's sports, and really I now feel that there seems to be a problem with them having access to female only spaces.

There needs to be a third space for them if they genuinely do not feel safe in male spaces. However some seem to.

Women should not be responsible for vulnerable males though. That is the issue. If men's spaces are really that dangerous then men need to sort that out.

I would be ok with a post operative trans woman who has obtained a GRC through current ... having access to women's spaces.

I would not.

For two reasons:

1. It would establish a precedent that males can be women and be acceptable in female spaces.

2. It is the equivalent of an immoral initiation haze. "You can join the rugby club if you down 13 pints in one minute, steal a policeman's helmet and present it butt-naked to the Chancellor." No. Woman is not a club. In any case, expecting somebody to modify their body in order to join a club is unacceptable.