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singular they - very happy to have found this on Wiki

29 replies

RedRoses · 10/10/2019 17:27

Singular they is the use in English of the pronoun they or its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (or themself), as an epicene (gender-neutral) singular pronoun. It typically occurs with an unspecified antecedent, as in sentences such as:

"Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?"
"The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay."
"But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources."
The singular they emerged by the 14th century, about a century after plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since then, and has gained currency in official contexts. Criticism of singular they began in the late-19th century by prescriptive experts, as they deemed it to be an "error".Its continued use in modern standard English has become more common and formally accepted with the trend toward gender-neutral language, though many style guides continue to describe it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing.

In the early 21st century, use of singular they with known individuals has been promoted for those who do not identify as male or female.

"This is my friend, Jay. I met them at work. They are a talented artist."

OP posts:
VeniVidiWeeWee · 10/10/2019 17:47

And your point, (and AIBU), is?

VeniVidiWeeWee · 10/10/2019 17:48

Apologies, not in AIBU. Must concentrate.

Bezalelle · 10/10/2019 17:55

Eh?

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

PancakeAndKeith · 10/10/2019 17:57

Jolly good.

RedRoses · 11/10/2019 08:51

My point is I have a historically accurate argument for those who tell me They cannot be singular when used instead of He/She

OP posts:
BlackberryNettles · 11/10/2019 08:53

I've always agreed that singular "they" is a thing, way before all the non-binary stuff came about, and I'm sure people used it without thinking but will make a big deal about using it if someone specifically asks to be called it.

Tyrotoxicity · 11/10/2019 08:54

Of course it can be singular.

But only when you don't know the sex of the person being referred to.

Blue5238 · 11/10/2019 08:55

Of course singular they is a thing. It's for when you don't know the sex of the person you are talking about. Most of us are pretty adept at knowing people's sex though, so don't need it for other scenarios

BlackberryNettles · 11/10/2019 08:58

People do use it in reference to people when sex is known, and it's hardly a big deal. "My friend Lucy is good at writing, they wrote this book..." what is the issue? Presumably you still know what is being said.

JellyBabiesSaveLives · 11/10/2019 09:05

But that’s just odd. A native English speaker would say “My friend Lucy is good at writing, she wrote this book..” wouldn’t they?

See? He/she when you know the sex, they when you don’t.

BlackberryNettles · 11/10/2019 09:12

Well, I'm a native English speaker and I don't always use he/she even when I know the sex. Nobody I spend time with would pick me up on saying the above.

Damntheman · 11/10/2019 10:17

Yes it's absolutely a thing and has been for ages and ages! I use the singular they when I don't know the person's preferred pronouns, and the singular they if I discover that's what the person prefers. It's not that hard and doesn't damage me.

DGRossetti · 11/10/2019 10:18

James Acaster does a routine about "he, or she" when "they" could be used (usually by a man who wasn't going to say "she" ...)

English also used to have a singular and plural form of "you" in "Thee" and "thou", (if you ever felt inadequate compared to French). Which still matters in Yorkshire (apparently Grin)

The problem with language though, is no matter how "correct" you are, you can only work with the people around you. If they have a different idea about how English works - no matter how wrong - you'll just end up looking weird and stupid. Unless you have money, in which case you're eccentric ...

RedRoses · 11/10/2019 11:10

I think when you say 'sex' you mean gender?

and exactly dantheman - the time to use it is when you don't know the person's preferred pronoun or if that is their choice

But I cannot tell you how many times this becomes and issue and people take offence

OP posts:
FizzyGreenWater · 11/10/2019 11:36

Of course it can be singular.

But only when you don't know the sex of the person being referred to.

Colloquially, absolutely not. I find myself using it occasionally.

'Is that Mary over there? Going into the shop. Hang on no, she's not going into there... where are they going now?' That kind of thing is absolutely normal in many regions.

Something that always sticks in my mind is the April Jones case. It was initially thought that there was more than one person in the van she got into, as the child who witnessed it apparently said 'she got into the van with them' - it was quickly established that it was one person, and a man. Perfectly normal speech for that region, and yes absolutely used when you know who the person is and know their sex.

BlackberryNettles · 11/10/2019 11:38

Is that Mary over there? Going into the shop. Hang on no, she's not going into there... where are they going now?' That kind of thing is absolutely normal in many regions.

Yep, grew up in Surrey and Kent, now live in London, perfectly normal nobody would give a shiny shit.

BlackberryNettles · 11/10/2019 11:40

think when you say 'sex' you mean gender?

No they man sex. She for females and he for males. Or she for women and he for men. Woman and man aren't genders.

Damntheman · 11/10/2019 11:50

Blackberry do some research. 'Woman' and 'Man' are among the literal definitions of gender.

Tyrotoxicity · 11/10/2019 12:06

I'm with Blackberry on that one. If man and woman are genders, then so are doe and buck, ewe and ram, bitch and dog, queen and tom.

They're species-specific sex designators. Masculine and feminine are genders; man and woman aren't.

Still wouldn't use "they" for an individual of known sex though. I can't; it just feels wrong. Same as I can't use "it" for a human being.

Damntheman · 11/10/2019 12:16

doe and buck, bitch and dog, ram and ewe are indeed also genders. Well done you.

And yes, you shouldn't use 'it' , that would be very dehumanising. But if a person requests that you use 'they' and you don't do it because it makes you mildly uncomfortable, that says a lot about you as a person.

MargoLovebutter · 11/10/2019 12:42

Pronouns as the subject of a sentence are always this:

I
You (singular)
he/ she / it
We
You (plural)
They (plural)

I always thought the singular "they" was acceptable in spoken English but was technically incorrect, but it sounds as though it is open to interpretation and probably no one really cares anyway! Grin

EmpressLesbianInChair · 11/10/2019 12:45

doe and buck, bitch and dog, ram and ewe are indeed also genders. Well done you.

Woman, man, and all the terms quoted are names for the female & male sexes of various species.

Gender is a misogynist concept that reinforces sex-role stereotypes.

Squoozie · 11/10/2019 12:57

I'm delighted for you, OP Hmm

Andylion · 11/10/2019 12:57

People do use it in reference to people when sex is known, and it's hardly a big deal. "My friend Lucy is good at writing, they wrote this book..." what is the issue? Presumably you still know what is being said.

Hmm People also say "could of". It doesn't make it correct.

DGRossetti · 11/10/2019 14:21

People also say "could of". It doesn't make it correct.

There comes a point when 99% of speakers are" wrong" that you just have to accept that the final arbiter of language is usage ....

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