Sainsburys going bag free

[Graphista]

Just received email from Sainsburys saying they're going bagless with deliveries.

I GET that this is supposed to be a "good thing" for the environment (though quite honestly I notice they're doing fuck all about individual packaging which I suspect would make a bigger difference!) BUT for me this HUGELY problematic.

I have OCD and so for me my groceries being in bags just feels a lot more hygienic. Than scrabbling about loose in crates that from what I can see are rarely cleaned!

In addition I live in the west of Scotland - it rains here pretty much most of the time! Already when it's wet weather the grocery bags are sometimes soaked but at least the individual products are dry!

I'm also physically disabled which means I already have to take 2-3 hours to "prep" to receive delivery of groceries (stretching exercises, bath, time for painkillers to kick in).

And there's more...

My flat is TINY the kitchen particularly so! It's a HALF galley so only one person can fit in there at a time (and even that's at a push! Dd and I have had to learn how to move in this kitchen so we don't constantly bump ourselves on cupboard edges etc).

With my disability I can just about manage carrying 2 carrier bags into kitchen at a time and placing on the floor when delivery comes. Drivers already get impatient with me!

I have sod all counter space (0.75m X 0.75m) to place items on, a few are normally placed on the cooker too but because of the hob shape only certain items fit. The ocd means I cannot put stuff on the floor absolutely NO WAY I could do that!

Fridge stuff takes careful management as small fridge and to fit everything in on fridge day is like setting up a Jenga game without a box!

IF I were to insist driver simply had to wait while I put everything away properly, well that normally takes me 60/90 mins!!

I have NOWHERE I can store crates (even collapsed) or bags for life

What the hell am I supposed to do?!

This is causing me GREAT anxiety so PLEASE be mindful of that in replies I would appreciate that.

,OP do you get all the benefits you are entitled to? Could you see about getting benefits maximised?

Asda have started doing the same where I am. They can't park outside my house so have to block the road which means they're always stressed and in a tearing hurry. What I've done is buy a builders bulk bag from Amazon, I load all the shopping in that on the doorstep from their crates then drag the bag into the kitchen. I have laminate floors so it slides okay but the shopping gets a bit tossed about.

"Could you put the bags in a bag? Then you could store the bags in a useful cubby hole but not use the 'outside/dirty bag' only the inside bags which have not touched any dirty areas themselves?" This is where my brains INSANE gymnastics come into play -

UNLESS I was able to store the collection of bags WITHIN the outer bag unfolded and upright with the "dirty" bottom part that's been on the floor at the bottom of the holding bag then that wouldn't work. I've tried this solution in the past and most bags are either too flimsy or too stiff for it to work (and believe me I tried a lot of different bags! Plastic bags for life, jute, canvas, cotton... All sorts)

"I know what you mean, I think it is a self image thing, where you think, THIS IS NOT ME! and it does feel "other" sometimes." My family and other people who've known me over 30 years honestly say they don't recognise me.

My persona before the breakdown was (being honest here) a bolshy, fiercely independent (my ex used to say he sometimes wondered why I bothered marrying as I so clearly didn't need him or anyone!), stubborn, outgoing, bloody minded, tenacious, opinionated argumentative ruddy cuss! (As my mother would say!).

I had survived a violent, abusive childhood inc csa and addiction in the family, 2 major car accidents inc a head injury, being knocked off my bike by a careless driver, asthma, double pleural pneumonia, a badly twisted ovary that was caught just in time, 2 mc (losing 3 babies) one of which was part ectopic and again caught just in time, my ex having an affair with a supposed mutual friend and getting her pregnant, divorce, him becoming a deadbeat prick and I had also earned 2 degrees inc one in nursing.

One long term friend (who KNOWS all the above is true as she's seen me through a lot of it!) joked once if I wrote a book nobody would believe it was true!!

Now I panic if the phone or doorbell goes unexpectedly, I currently haven't left flat in 21 months, I barely leave my bedroom, when I am in a phase where I'm not completely housebound, whether I can go out or not depends on whether I've had any sleep, how my mood is, what the weathers like, if there are likely to be certain triggers in the outside world, where I'd be going, if that place is likely to be busy, if the taxis I trust are available to get me there and back, if I have the "right" clothes to wear, if someone I feel safe with and knows how to handle me if I panic can accompany me...

So yea, I wonder where the "real graphista" fucking went!

And I know it's trivial but it's also things like I've piled on weight because even though I barely eat I also barely move and the meds I'm on (for all sorts not just the OCD) have weight gain as side effect. I haven't had a haircut in nearly 3 years because I don't like to be touched, this also means it isn't dyed any more, I don't mind the grey so much what pisses me off is my ginger is there for all to see! My teeth are a mess as there's no such thing as mobile dentists! 😂 I need new glasses and can barely see a damn thing especially at night. I suspect I need hearing aids certainly I'm driving dd nuts with asking her to repeat loads and I constantly have to "rewind" tv/film because I haven't heard what they've said and I can't read the subtitles!

I feel far older than I am, I ache all over most days and I have to be careful how I move/lift things.

Bags clipped or hooked onto a coat hanger so they're not touching the floor and you can hang them on the back of a door or other place and it won't take up much room?

"I’m all for recycling, saving the environment, looking for alternatives, charging for bags etc. But I think that supermarkets should offer customers the CHOICE of how they get their shopping delivered and not just impose a blanket rule that causes some customers real problems."
Thank you! This is exactly what I'm saying! I would be more than happy to receive in paper or biodegradable bags.

RaisinsEverywhere - I think that may have to be what I do. There's nowhere in kitchen they can go before use so will have to find somewhere in bedroom.

ScratchyFluffFace - I seem to have been landed with aspects of ALL kinds of OCD! It's primarily germs but it's also checking, counting and "pure" obsessing. I bloody hate it it's a Fucking awful condition.

NoSquirrels - bags for life MAY work if I can juggle somewhere to store them open not folded up but I'll probably have to do some reorganising of bedroom to do this.

Tables in hall not an option - hard to explain, hall is narrow and sort of "S" shaped? Bloody awkward!

"Can I just ask... what us the problem with folding the bags for life! I ‘get’ not wanting the dirty bits to touch the clean bits, but the way they fold they don’t. Then I place two bottoms together, and next a top so that the dirty bits only touch dirty bits. I’m not understanding what you think is unclean about hiw I do it?! (I mean the orange and yellow sturdy bags for life)" I totally understand how you're explaining it and when I'm more well than I am now I've done similar myself but I know at the moment I would put them away like that...and then need to keep checking they'd stayed like that and not "accidentally" ended up with dirty bits touching clean bits. I just know how I am at the moment and what I can and cannot cope with.

"Graphista your flat sounds very much like mine

In our hallway you cant turn round and there is only room for one person to walk (single file) Ditto the galley kitchen. Cant have two people in there at the same time. Because you cant turn around. Its a fucking stupid design. Also social housing flat but one bedroom. Open the oven door in the kitchen and no one can stand at the kitchen sink" that's exactly it! If I'm in the kitchen doing dishes dd cannot use the oven (my legs would get burnt) or open the washing machine door (no space to open it enough for her to access). The dish drainer has to sit on top of the washer and I have to remember to put the dry plates away before doing a wash as else when the spin goes I risk my plates and glasses getting broke!

The crackers part is that IN THEORY this flat as a 2 double bed could house a family of FOUR! How the Fuck you're supposed to be able to even prep a meal for four in that kitchen I don't know!!

"I reckon we will start to see a few complaints once people start their Christmas shopping if presents get soaking wet or ruined." Excellent point but I think there will be complaints sooner up here as we seem to have hit our monsoon season! It rains pretty much all the time (except for last year when we actually got a "summer") but obviously more/heavier in Autumn/winter.

"I wonder if Sainsbury’s have thought about people in your position. This will clearly be a problem for others too." I am definitely not just thinking about myself! As I said I've a mother with arthritis and a fair number of other family/friends have various conditions, now they're all "lucky" enough that they have other people to help that they either live with or have been given carers/support workers to manage such things BUT not everyone has that support.

"You're going to have to do some lateral thinking and be a bit creative over finding a solution to this "problem"" that's partly why I posted - because I knew I was frozen in panic and was hoping some wizard mner would have a solution. Or something I could adapt. As it happens the getting bags from Amazon was prompted by the thread and I will give consideration to crate/trolley thingy if I can think where to store when not in use as it would be useful for heavy/awkward items and not mean I was rushing to unpack these.

"There are probably lots of volunteer organisations who could help with this." Where I live is extremely deprived and while there are organisations who are very kind and willing they are extremely overwhelmed as a result of all the cuts.

One posted on local Facebook page recently that they are unable to take new clients on as they simply have too much on.

"OP do you get all the benefits you are entitled to? Could you see about getting benefits maximised?" Ooft! That's a hell of a question to ask right now! I'm currently ALSO dealing with the change from DLA to pip, that too has been extremely problematic, I have support from a local welfare advisor but it has been tough going!

I'm still on legacy benefits and have been repeatedly advised to basically "not rock the boat" with the way things are, particularly locally.

I probably should have claimed and would have been eligible for higher rates of DLA than I was/am getting as I'm much more unwell than I was when I claimed last.

So honestly I don't know and I'm kinda scared to check?

Feel sick every time letterbox goes!

Not helped by the fact I don't currently have ANY support from MH services - haven't since April. Not because I don't need the support but basically because they don't know HOW to support me - not something they've officially admitted but something which someone inadvertently let slip!

FairyDust - see! It's an utterly ridiculous policy that not only negatively affects elderly/disabled but even people with just plain practical/logistical reasons why it doesn't bloody work!

You watch you don't injure yourself dragging that builders bag!

You know what even IF they left you the crates (I would happily leave outside front door on close landing, they'd be fine there IF I Wasn't having to use those exact crates again) and then when they did the next weeks delivery they brought that in "new" crates and took the "old" ones away (to be CLEANED before being reused too) even THAT would work for me! And I suspect a hell of a lot of others too!

"Excellent point but I think there will be complaints sooner up here as we seem to have hit our monsoon season! It rains pretty much all the time"

And bang on cue......................................................also in Scotland.

twitter.com/JElgott/status/1175708812650733569?s=20

IF they left you the crates (I would happily leave outside front door on close landing, they'd be fine there IF I Wasn't having to use those exact crates again) and then when they did the next weeks delivery they brought that in "new" crates and took the "old" ones away (to be CLEANED before being reused too) even THAT would work for me!

Do you usually get the same drivers? I would try to come to a private arrangement, tbh. Bet most of them would bloody LOVE the chance to just drop and run, taking empties with them. The first week would be awkward if they needed to account for it, but after that...

On that theme. Could you buy your own crates to store on the landing? Or are you saying that once the food went in those crates it would seem unclean to use them again?
I bet there is a way to make it work for you, and this would stop the storage/tiny flat issue?

Graphista your life sounds absolutely exhausting. I am so sorry you have so much to deal with. It must be so frustrating that those of us who have never experienced OCD can't properly understand what it is like and often don't have very much patience or take you very seriously at all.

It sounds so ridiculous to my calm rational non-OCD brain that you can't fold the bags for life up in case a dirty bit touches a clean bit. But I believe you when you say that you just can't fold up the bags. It must be so draining to have to think round these things all the time. You must be really inventive.

You write so well too and really explain what it's like, your thread has been a real eye opener for me.

I'm sorry I can't think of any easy solutions for you. You basically need something clean to quickly unpack the shopping into at the door so you can take your time to put it away in your kitchen, but you can't use the clean thing again because once it has touched your floor it's not clean any more?

Can you cover the floor in a sheet you can wash then put bags for life on the sheet? You can also put those sturdy rectangular shaped reusable bags in the washing machine, I've done that many a time when something has been spilled in them. They don't last for ever but they survive a fair few washes if you don't spin them too fast.

"Do you usually get the same drivers?" No! Different driver every time I've been with them almost 3 years now and I don't think I've had same driver twice! And that's even though delivery same day, same time every week.

"On that theme. Could you buy your own crates to store on the landing?" No, it's the storing on landing that's the issue, I'd never use those crates again, even if I cleaned them myself. I MAY be able to clear a SMALL space next to/behind bedside table for a crate to be stored not sure though.

The crates not having lids has always bugged me too, with the weather we have here! I'm SURE there are crates with lids that fold inside the crates when not in use so they can be stacked when not in use (I'm sure that'd be the argument for not using crates with lids)

IF we lived in a warm sunny country and the crates were REGULARLY CLEANED all would be fine - but we don't!

"Do you usually get the same drivers?" No! Different driver every time I've been with them almost 3 years now and I don't think I've had same driver twice! And that's even though delivery same day, same time every week.

"On that theme. Could you buy your own crates to store on the landing?" No, it's the storing on landing that's the issue, I'd never use those crates again, even if I cleaned them myself. I MAY be able to clear a SMALL space next to/behind bedside table for a crate to be stored not sure though.

The crates not having lids has always bugged me too, with the weather we have here! I'm SURE there are crates with lids that fold inside the crates when not in use so they can be stacked when not in use (I'm sure that'd be the argument for not using crates with lids)

IF we lived in a warm sunny country and the crates were REGULARLY CLEANED all would be fine - but we don't!

@sewbean thank you for your kind, thoughtful post - I've had cpn's with less understanding than you displayed in that one post! It IS exhausting (I'm often asked, inc by hcps why I'm tired! Aside from the sheer effort of performing all the rituals, the anxiety and lack of sleep is also knackering!)

I sometimes have an "out of mind" as opposed to "out of body" experience where I view myself from a "sane" perspective as I disinfect a cup or wash a plate X amount of times rather than just once and it IS COMPLETELY BONKERS!! I know it is! (I've also had hcps talk to me as if I'm stupid and don't REALISE it's BONKERS!) BUT I also know what will happen if I DON'T do the ritual especially without the proper support. It can be anything from "just" having to clean something again to...moving house! It's a bit of an mn "in joke" that eg a home is now contaminated cos spider or similar and there are joke responses/posts "I'll/you'll just have to move!" But that genuinely has been my reaction to the worst cases on 4 occasions now - where I literally could no longer enter my home, couldn't even enter the street!

"You basically need something clean to quickly unpack the shopping into at the door so you can take your time to put it away in your kitchen, but you can't use the clean thing again because once it has touched your floor it's not clean any more?" Pretty much! Brevity and editing are NOT my strong suits 😂

I also need a new spine, neck, hips and shoulders so I CAN physically bend and stay bent and transfer all the shopping to whatever without being knackered/left in agony!

No, it's the storing on landing that's the issue, I'd never use those crates again, even if I cleaned them myself. I MAY be able to clear a SMALL space next to/behind bedside table for a crate to be stored not sure though.

Could you purchase a storage box, one of those plastic long ones for garden furniture cushions etc? Or would the fact of it being outside on the landing mean it was unsafe?

A few people, me included, have asked about the sheet-on-the-floor idea to stop anything touching unclean bits. Would that help?

Honestly, I think the least stressful thing would be a person who you pay to shop with DD and drive/deliver the shopping.

A very good psychiatrist I once had (sadly no more he retired) once said that I had a better understanding of my condition than many of his registrars, indeed better than some of his consultant peers, but that understanding doesn't mean I'm able to cure it or even "just" ignore it.

I've read so much on it and tried to find treatments and solutions and it's incredibly frustrating that there's a fair amount of research into the possible causes but fairly little into working treatments.

Worldwide the accepted "gold standard" for ocd is:

Finding the right antidepressant for the patient (still trying to crack that one - not only probs with OCD but also allergies)

Cbt - with erp involvement (I've had 3 courses of cbt supposedly which actually made me worse. I've recently discovered the treatment I was given was improperly implemented)

Learning relaxation techniques for when overwhelmed with panic/anxiety (all the standard ones make me worse because they don't give my brain enough of a distraction and really just remind me I'm panicking! So I panic more!)

Hypnotherapy is contraindicated as studies have found it very likely to make ocd worse.

Other talking therapies don't really help and aren't generally recommended.

I had some success with some new types of therapies but few people are trained in them and I was much more well when I started them anyway so don't know how good they'd be if I were to try being as unwell as I am now.

It's incredibly frustrating.

If someone invented a pill or a laser treatment or even a brain surgery that cured it I'd be first in line to try it!

"Could you purchase a storage box, one of those plastic long ones for garden furniture cushions etc? Or would the fact of it being outside on the landing mean it was unsafe?" There isn't enough space for something like that and even if there was I suspect landlords wouldn't be happy and deem it a fire/health and safety hazard

"A few people, me included, have asked about the sheet-on-the-floor idea to stop anything touching unclean bits. Would that help?" I answered the first suggestion of this quite early in thread - sorry no wouldn't help.

"Honestly, I think the least stressful thing would be a person who you pay to shop with DD and drive/deliver the shopping." I am considering this option but struggling to find anyone that offers such a service, dd would need to OK with it too. She struggles dealing with new people.

Drivers should be able to help if you buy your own plastic bags to use. If they can’t unload on a kitchen counter as no room then they are not going stand there for an hour while you bend down 20 times for each crate to pick an item and add to bag.

I mean if they were unloading onto counter they have to physically pick item from crate to counter, so it’s no more lifting for them to put in bags you have ready.

Just wanted to send a virtual hug (I know you wouldn't want a real one!). Your life sounds very hard and bloody virtue signalling by big companies doesn't help anyone, or make much of a difference to the planet, I suspect. I don't have experience of OCD but my partner suffered from chronic pain for many years so i have some insight into how long term and 'invisible' disabilities affect daily life and are often ignored, how poorly many HCPs understand chronic conditions etc. I hope Sainsburys change their plans/take account of instances like yours and that you find a way to manage. It is so frustrating when you have gone to a lot of trouble to find a workable solution and then somebody else sabotages it. Best wishes, OP.

I wanted to say, I understand and I totally empathise with you. I had the email yesterday and it’s left me feeling the same.

The crates are filthy and I don’t want my food rolling around in them. Also I don’t want the driver standing awkwardly as I unpack. I have a bad back and lifting the carriers out is painful. I don’t know how I’m going to manage with this new system.

It’s frustrating when people suggest going into the supermarket as an alternative. If that was possible I’m sure people wouldn’t have a need for online deliveries.

Wilko sell a roll of carrier bags. Keep them by the door. They then get used as bin bags. Which you’d have to buy anyway.

www.wilko.com/en-uk/polyline-tie-handle-multi-use-bags-20-pack/p/0475638

These are honestly brilliant. And really good quality.

I have no solution to add but wanted to offer massive hug.
I work weird hours and often help a friend who has similar OCD problems (problems is not the right word, sorry, total brain farts today). If I lived near you I'd offer help, too.

I have very severe OCD and I'll tell you what worked for me for home deliveries in regards to the germs on them and the fear they were contaminated. It was the realisation and acceptance that by the time the groceries are on the truck, they are already contaminated. My reused bags for life won't contaminate them because the shopping items already ARE contaminated. They've been handled by several people by that point and have been in many (probably not pristine clean) places on their journey fat dirtier than inside my bag for life. So the bags can't hurt them, the floor can't hurt them, etc. They're already dirty.

That might not work for you though. I know how tricky the OCD can make things and how it twists its own rules.