Is Brownies supposed to be religious?

[Garfieldsarm]

DD7 has just started Brownies, having previously attended Rainbows.

I was aware that Brownies had amended their promise, to omit serving God, and with a focus on developing beliefs.

I was a bit surprised when picking DD up from Brownies at her first session this week that her pack are still doing the Brownie Prayer from 30 odd years ago, talking about Father in Heaven, which is not something our family does. I am happy for DD to show tolerance to all faiths, but less happy about her being asked to actively participate in prayer.

I spoke to Brown Owl afterwards and she was fine and said that it isn't purely Christian because "Father in Heaven" could be any God... but I don't think she quite got it, because as athiests, we don't believe in any type of supernatural "father". I reiterated that I didn't want DD to be made to feel awkward by not participating in prayer, and she said that would be fine. We teach DD to be tolerant to all religions, and I'm sure she will stand quietly and respectfully, even if she doesn't shut her eyes and recite the prayer each week.

This isn't a massive issue, and I'm certainly not looking to stir the pot (everyone is a volunteer, and I am grateful), but I was wondering if our Brownie leader, who is old enough to have been a Brownie when Baden-Powell himself was a child, has perhaps not received a memo about times moving on. Or if prayer is standard at all Brownie packs?

When I did guides it always had religious elements. At the end we used to sing

Day is done,
Gone the sun,
From the sea, from the hills, from the sky,
All is well,
Safely rest,
God is nigh.

I feel like it’s a part of the history of the groups, they’re providing activities and entertainment at low cost, with the help of very kind volunteers, and you choose to send your child there, so it seems a bit churlish to complain?

A short prayer at Brownies will not indoctrinate anyone. I was really only making the point that op shouldn’t steam in making a fuss when others seem fine with it and her dd can simply opt out without any particular drama.

riot My DDs guides still sing Taps at the end of each meeting.

As a child of athiest parents I found great comfort from the Brownie prayer. The thought someone else was looking over me just helped me navigate childhood. My parents would explain why they didn't believe/agree but let me know it was fine to participate as it mattered to other people. They didn't realise it mattered to me.
I ended up studying theology although I never converted to either side, I am agnostic. I respect my parents for letting me experience another world (uniformed groups usually do church services throughout the year) and admire them for letting me and explaining why they don't agree.

My daughter’s Brown Owl was brought up by evangelical Christian parents and as a result is extremely anti-religion - she’s been clear from the start that her pack would be strictly secular, which I’m grateful for, as I’m an atheist. Personally I wouldn’t be delighted about Brownies having a religious aspect although I appreciate historically it was linked to the church.

Under the previous Brown Owls when my elder daughter attended, meetings had no religious content either.

I wouldn’t be happy with it either OP, but as long as my child was otherwise enjoying it I would simply have a chat with her about other people believing things we don’t. I’m an atheist but haven’t pushed my views on my children - they’ve reached the same conclusions as me in their own time.

As for the majority of children not being atheists, perhaps that’s true but I would wager, given the decline of Christianity in this country, that the majority will not be practising Christians. I appreciate that historically Brownies was linked to the Christian church but it seems anachronistic for an organisation which is trying to keep up with the times, in the 21st century and in such a multi-cultural and multi-faith society, to be promoting a solely Christian view.

she was fine and said that it isn't purely Christian because "Father in Heaven" could be any God

Sure... but not when the last lines of the same bloody song are:

Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen

We’re not religious in my group, but the level of God is going to depend on the leader.

Beware though - leaders are all volunteers. Rock the boat on this, which has clearly been going on for a looooong time, and potentially find your leader decides she’s had enough, unit closes, and so no more Brownies.

Just teach DD that some people believe and she should just remain quiet during prayers.

Thanks all, as I said at the beginning (and contrary to some people's posts!) I'm NOT planning on making a fuss, and I recognise everyone is a volunteer, giving a lot of hours and hard work.

My question was more about overarching policy; from what you have said, it seems the majority have Brownie Bells (which seems quite sweet) but the prayer is a bit old-fashioned; we didn't even do that when we were at Brownies in the 80s!

It's not affiliated with a church - it's held in a Guide Hall, but I know the Brown Owl is Christian.

I'm not planning on "making a fuss", "rocking the boat" or speaking to the District Commissioner (unless something happens to make my DD feel genuinely uncomfortable) - I just wanted a sense check on whether or not prayer at Brownies was usual.

There are other packs locally, but it would seem churlish to change, plus she has friends at this pack. I will continue to advise her to believe what she wants to believe, and to be respectful and silent during prayer if she doesn't want to participate, but not to be afraid to speak up and challenge others' beliefs too.

Even though our town is ethincally diverse, every single one of the 30 girls I saw at Brownies this week was white. I do wonder a little if the strong Christian message perhaps puts off a more diverse Brownie base. But I'm speculating.

Brownies is all volunteers, so while they have central guidelines etc actual packs vary a lot in what they get up to, and that's fair enough imo. As long as they aren't doing anything extreme!

I was raised catholic and am athiest. I think that the feeling that there is 'something else ' is an innate thing in some people. I do wonder if it's easier to have a background religion to ditch, than have no religion and feel you need one. Also, c of e is pretty innocuous, generally.

Final thing is i really do think it's a bit peculiar to suggest to a 7yo that she might want to challenge others beliefs at brownies? What sort of beliefs were you thinking, how does that play out?

I've had a couple drinks the above might not be phrased very well!

Do not encourage her to challenge other children’s beliefs . Bloody hell... Who the hell do you think she is?

Agnostic Owl here.

We usually sing Brownie Bells at the end. We try other songs (eg Make New Friends, or Go Well & Safely) but they ask for Bells.

I've never heard that prayer before!

The new Promise has " to be true to myself and develop my beliefs ". As part of Promise prep, I encourage discussion about different types of beliefs and emphasise the 'be true to myself' part.

Same prayer as when I was a brownie. The way I see it is that that's a huge variety of kids clubs these days, only a few are religious so if it bothers you choose a different club. Many brownies are sponsored by churches and attending church parade was part of the deal, the brownies has long closed at our church but the scouts come to church 4-5 times a year

Re: challenging beliefs, yes I do think that's important... as indeed is picking your moment! I am not for a moment suggesting that she should start questioning anything in the middle of prayer, or even within the Brownie group - perhaps I phrased that badly.

But - for example - if down the line a child says, "it's wrong for girls not to cover their hair", "women are unclean on their period" or "you will not go to heaven if you're not a Christian", I will absolutely encourage her to challenge this and to speak up about her own beliefs.

And of course, who knows what her own beliefs might be in a few years time - she will have the freedom to choose of course!

'it's wrong for girls not to cover their hair", "women are unclean on their period'

These are the sort of things you think she might hear 7yo girls saying at a Christian based brownie meeting?

Neither of those are commonly held Christian beliefs in the uk.

'you will not go to heaven if you're not a Christian"'

I mean even this, pretty unlikely. I don't think mainstream Christians believe this anyway? Not sure on that. You think there are some jehovahs witnesses at the brownies maybe?

I mean I'm an athiest but i find it odd that you think bogstandard c of e people in uk are teaching kids that women are dirty and non Christians go to hell!

Another Brown Owl here.

This is definitely an individual thing and not national Girlguiding policy. When I took over running my unit, they sang the traditional Brownie Bells as written above. I felt slightly uncomfortable with the religious wording so we consulted with the Brownies in our unit and decided on one of the newer non-religious versions of Brownie Bells. We sing:

All round the world
The Brownies say
We do good deeds
Throughout the day
Goodnight

Girlguiding is supposed to be girl-led. The girls should decide on elements of what goes on at Brownies and should really be consulted from time to time on what versions of songs they sing and whether or not they want to say a prayer. Perhaps there is a way of bringing this up with Brown Owl although if she is very set in her ways it might be difficult. I would however, suggest you do contact the District Commissioner or Division Commissioner even though you said you wouldn't. Please don't think of it as causing trouble but rather as helping Girlguiding ensure that all units are following and delivering on the current national policies.

Don't send her than if you don't like what they do , or find a pack that doesn't say prayers etc, .

I went once as a child because my Mother’s best friend’s daughter went so Mum wanted me to try it. All they spoke about was God so I told my Mother I wouldn’t be returning and that was the end of it. I think I was about 7.

My DC go to cubs/beavers and there’s no mention of God.

I went to.one as a child to.in the 80,s it was attached to the Catholic church by I went to, held i n the church hall , other than monthly church parades , I don't recall them talking about ,God ,we did all kinds of things treasure hunts, first aid etc .

Brownies have clear historical links to the church. You will have older volunteers who volunteered in part because of their faith and I am sure in part this is a legacy issue.

This all being said you live in a Christian country and that is reflected in many ways, eg the archbishops sitting in the House of Lords/ large number of UK public holidays are based on Christianity etc

As an ex-Brownie, and having lead at 3 different Brownie packs including one in a church (now a Guide leader) I’ve never even heard this prayer. The church meeting group did do a prayer at the end, but the Brownies would volunteer to be the one to choose that weeks from a book and read it out. The book was a folder of prayers the Brownies had written, so some were religious and some not and some utterly bizarre.

As a Guide leader now we still sing Taps, but girls have the option to sing “love is nigh” instead of “God is nigh”.

@OwlOfBrown That is really helpful, thank you. I really don't want to speak to the District Commissioner though; I think it would be really obvious that someone has spoken to them (and really easy to guess it might be the parent who spoke to Brown Owl and asked questions about the faith element).

As I mentioned upthread, I'm very conscious that it is staffed by volunteers, who may well have come to it from a Christian background, and I'm not looking to storm in and insist it's done my way.

To posters who say, "If you don't like it, don't take her" - that's sort of fair enough - but it also seems reasonable to find out if this is Brownie policy, a voluntary policy or a Brown Owl gone rogue!

@Fraggling my daughter does also exist outside of Brownie meetings, so this may well be something she comes across in the next few years, and I will absolutely support her challenging beliefs. A Hindu girl at my CofE school was made to cry by members of the Christian Union who told her that she and her parents would go to hell because they'd had the chance to convert and hadn't. One of my best friends told me that she felt bad that they had said that to her (and she hadn't joined in), but she did absolutely believe that what they said was correct. I want my DD to be able to stand up against this.

But no, unlikely that that would be at a Brownie meeting!

Late comment on this thread but just wanted to clarify a few things - Girlguiding is not a religious organisation and whilst I know that many units still meet in churches because of convenience/cost-efficiency, we should really be trying to move away from prayers during meetings, enforced church service attendance and songs with reference to God. I don't agree that she should just have to tolerate it - these are OLD traditions and although there is a time and place for traditions, that should never be at the cost of someone feeling unwelcome/excluded. As someone suggested, please speak to your local district commissioner to see if any other local groups are more suited/less religiously linked :) Good luck!
From a Girlguiding volunteer of 10+ years

Are you vegan OP? Better check the contents of the cookery badge if you are!!!

I liked the way you referred to the leader's age, even if a gross exaggeration.

I’m religious.

I think people who cannot grasp why anyone could see religion as harmful are extremely naive and rather stupid.

It is not a benign influence to many.