Mixed ability teaching at Secondary

[FlyingBanana]

One school we really like locally for its nurturing ethos and whole rounded focus on the child etc has been mixed ability teaching for the last 3 years (so now yr 7-10).

Can this really work? My child is v bright and struggles with noisy classrooms and getting bored etc at juniors so im thinking it may not work for her...
I just wondered if Id missed something!

They do set for maths but I think that's it!

Our local secondary is the same so you might find it tricky to find somewhere that doesn’t...
It is a huge worry as my children are the same and do struggle in mixed ability with some of the class either not understanding/low level disruptions etc and I remain unconvinced that the teachers are able to differentiate in a class like that. Unfortunately, it has meant that we have to tutor for some of the poorer taught subjects —looking at you MFL— but I’m not sure of any other pay than paying privately or putting them on a bus to somewhere else!

Former teacher here.
I’ve taught mixed ability and sets (non core subject).
My feeling was always that for the bright kids, sets worked better than mixed ability teaching.
For the less able kids, setting felt like a bit of a death sentence if not done well (ie kids placed in bottom sets for behavioural reasons only). But when done well setting allowed teaching to meet the needs of all students.

With good staff and good support mixed ability teaching will be fine - ask lots of questions about how they stretch the most able. Using them to teach the less able is fine as a one off, but not every time they finish a piece of work.

@MrsElijahMikaelson1 good teachers certainly can and do differentiate for that, but there needs to be provision by the senior leadership team for adequate planning and support. Many schools do not factor in enough planning time for those delivering to mixed ability classes, so teaching to the middle results.

No it can't. Imo. Most schools have mixedd ability for year 7 or possibly set for maths, then year 8 set for maths English and science, then obviously at ks4 all compulsory subjects will be set, and depending on resources and take up maybe humanities and languages.

Some schools work in bands based on core subjects.

I would frankly be amazed, and feel sorry for the teachers if they were not set in English and science. Higher GCSE to foundation GCSE is like a different world.

Are you 100%sure??

I think the research shows that mixed ability works better for all children and the whole groups results are higher......except for the top 10%.

My kids are bright, and in that top 10%, so I deliberately found a school that didn't do it.
Around us it is common to set only for Maths and English, and even then sometimes not English.

I think they do change that at KS4 (year 10 and 11) for GCSE

Not a fan here. I have children who have Sen (ranging from gifted/talented to dyslexic with ASD & anxiety). Gifted (at uni now) was always used to "help" the struggling ones or more disruptive ones were put next to her as she wouldn't put up with being disrupted but none the else's ended up helping them as they were generally struggling and one with dyslexia just felt out of his depth and sat doing nothing but as he wasn't disruptive went unnoticed - if he made it into school at all due to anxiety feeling that he was failing in class caused him!! The only thing I really don't like about sets is lack of movement between them, which is more often due to numbers not ability. There should be clear pathways for children to move up and down according to progression and performance (not just in tests).

*less not else's! Wish we could edit!

100% sure its mixed ability apart from maths. So far just year 7-10 but its going up the school each year as they get older.

Its one of their selling points - teach to the top etc.

All the other schools on the area set, so am wary of choosing thebone that doesn't for my high ability kid (attempting grammar but haven't tutored for 100 years to get in). Its the nicest school/supportive/community spirit which is why Im torn. On our doorstep is one of the strictest schools in England (so er no.) And one of the biggest (seems amazing but child is v easily overwhelmed) and the grammar.

It's so hard to choose.

Lumpy - asd and gifted here too!

And all the other schools say they revaluate sets and there's movement. (Then tricky for the kids and friendships but much better than being set in stone.)

Steppe - we are in the same boat too I think but everywhere else sets, so didnt realise mixed avility was common elsewhere!

DS absolutely hated it (pretty high achieving) whereas DD who was more middle of the road really liked mixed sets.

I regret not pushing DS a bit for the Grammar and he will be going to one for 6th form. It’s not easy working out what’s for the best, I feel for you.

Yes I’ve just been fobbed off with “its all mixed ability sets” in year 8 for languages despite my DD getting a really high mark in the end year tests and “top banded” she’s not been grouped with the highest achieving kids (who all chose Latin as extra subject 🙄) yet the head of year told me “oh no we don’t set” my DD is not convinced at all that is the case, as all those who chose Latin have been grouped together and all are high banded... it also works the other way as my DD is now realising that she has to really fight for her place in a top set and work hard to stay there as she’s realising the lower level groups (rightly or wrongly) have more disruptive pupils in them and she learns less. It’s an ongoing life lesson as she generally found primary school easy this is making her step up a bit more. It’s the discipline issue for me in the lower sets as a good teacher can differentiate the learning but not if they are constantly having to get control of the class..

The only thing I really don't like about sets is lack of movement between them, which is more often due to numbers not ability. There should be clear pathways for children to move up and down according to progression and performance (not just in tests).

My thoughts too. The schools/teachers like to parrot off about moving between sets, but in reality, the numbers who move down are small, and even fewer move up. I'd love to see statistics showing just how much movement there is, but there's nothing available publicly. Trouble is that different sets are progressing at different speeds, so you need a child in a lower set to be doing exceptionally well to be able to move up, AND, catch up with work the higher set have already done. It's a big ask, even for the most able pupils. Moving down is easier. I asked my son about it and he said in his top Maths group for GCSE, no one at all moved up into it and only one boy moved down. That's exactly how it was in my school days 40 years ago - I don't remember anyone ever moving up but 1 or 2 did move down. That's completely different to what is portrayed by teachers/schools.

I asked my son about it and he said in his top Maths group for GCSE, no one at all moved up into it and only one boy moved down. That's exactly how it was in my school days 40 years ago - I don't remember anyone ever moving up but 1 or 2 did move down.

That might be an indication of appropriate setting. Borderline kids put in the higher set and if they don't cope can be moved down.

Can I just point out that most education and training IS mixed ability, it's really only GCSEs that are set for.

A level classes are mixed ability, so are university courses and work place training.Obviously to take an A level or a degree you have to achieve a certain level to be on the course.

In fact other than core subjects GCSEs are mixed ability if there is only one GCSE class per year.

Higher GCSE to foundation GCSE is like a different world.

Nothing changes. In my days, 40 years ago, I was in classes where both GCE and CSE were being taught to the same mixed ability group. Completely crazy as the syllabii were very different. I remember in Chemistry, I was doing GCE and our half of the class were just treading water whilst the teacher spent the final Christmas to Easter period concentrating on CSE topics that weren't in the GCE syllabus, then after Easter, the CSE pupils had "left" for study leave, it was crazy with the teacher trying to teach the GCE only subjects between Easter and the half term, with no time at all for any revision.

Stupid thing was it was unnecessary. There were 4 groups for Chemistry. The top group was all GCE, the bottom group was all CSE and the two middle were joint, presumably to allow pupils to switch between CSEGCE, but it just screwed it up for everyone!

The scary school near us tests every 6 weeks and moves accordingly. But they also didplay results and rank the students. So there is movement but its also more like a military school.

The huge school that sets has 2 points a year where they move people, and say they cover the same material but at different speed but of course if they speed through they must do in more depth.

I understand mixed ability is common in primary schools just really surprised its used in the secondary.

The one above where they say its mixed for languarges - I wonder if it is meant to be but its a timetabling issue - so those doing latin have other languages together as thats the timetabling slots, so not intentio ally a higher set but is by virtue of the fact they're doing latin?

So I have nurturing C of E school but mixed ability sets

Vs
Boot camp school we're not really considering

Vs
Huge giant school that sets but presumably has more issues with large intake. Also a bus journey.

I really wished we'd done more prep for the grammar school. She may still of course still get in.

A level and uni is nothing like mixed ability secondary - you are basically looking only at 1/3 to half the year in an average school.

Everyone has to be in school so theres no level to be achieved to get in. In yrs 7-9 you have those that wont take GCSE's or who will struggle to get Maths and English alongside those who want to pursue in much greater depth. A level there3s entrance criteria dor 6th form and subject.

The one above where they say its mixed for languarges - I wonder if it is meant to be but its a timetabling issue - so those doing latin have other languages together as thats the timetabling slots, so not intentio ally a higher set but is by virtue of the fact they're doing latin?

Yep, far more likely. At my son's school, they claim to set only for Maths and English, and claim the middle groups are all mixed ability with just the top and bottom Maths & English being based on ability, but due to timetabling, he was with mostly the same cohort in most other subjects too. In fact, despite being relatively weak in English, he ended up in the top English group by virtue of being in the top Maths group - never quite worked out the logic of that!

The only thing I really don't like about sets is lack of movement between them, which is more often due to numbers not ability.

Just prompted me to add to this when thinking of timetabling. Not all "sets" of the same subject are taught at the same time, so that's another reason why moving between sets isn't as simple or as common as schools/teachers would like you to think. If you have one teacher teaching two sets of the same year, they have to be timetabled at different slots, so it would be impossible to move a pupil from one to another without also moving them from one set to another in at least one other subject too.

My Dd, y7, is set for all subjects other than for PE (which is yet to be set, they're still assessing ability) and technology. She is higher ability, not sure whether they set all the middling/lower ability classes. I prefer it, time will tell if it's successful.

A level classes are mixed ability, so are university courses and work place training.Obviously to take an A level or a degree you have to achieve a certain level to be on the course.

daft comment.
To take an A level you need to have acheived a certain mark, eg a 6 at GCSE.
Therefore the 'mixed ability' is those between a 6 and a 9. Or in old money, those who got a B, A or A*.

But at GCSE level, you have kids who will not get their GCSE, so for the sake of this example, lets say -1 right up to those who get a 9. That is a huge spread.

We got round it by sending them to grammar in the next county. In the grammar school, they do very little setting (maths only) so you could say they are mixed ability classes.
Yes, mixed ability of kids who all passed a selctive exam to be there, so again, in GCSE terms, approximately from a 5-9.

Steppe - I am so hoping for the grammar school, but its only a few from each school who get in so currently working our my plan B. And failing!

Kazzyhoward

I did O Level and CSE Chemistry, I got a grade 1 CSE and scraped a C in O Level.

daft comment.
To take an A level you need to have acheived a certain mark, eg a 6 at GCSE.*

No you don't. Lots of subject are not available at GCSE or not available at all schools, Computer science is one.

For languages it's quite common for a student to add a different language so they may have GCSE French and German but pick up Spanish but be in a class with students with GCSE.

Psychology, economics, sociology, law - not many schools teach them at GCSE.

Lots of students do double science and go on to take A Levels in science subjects.

At uni there are a lot of courses where you don't need a specific set of A Levels and you will share the course with students who have taken BTEC, IB, Pre-U, access courses and mature students who may not have taken a level 3 course at all.

Some universities put groups of students together for individual modules so an anatomy class may have students doctors, nurses, clinical physiologists and anatomists.