To ask if my 4yo's lack of manners is normal?

[User24689]

My DD is 4 (and 2 months)

She is generally a gorgeous, chatty and kind girl. She is bright and inquisitive.

She has always been a bit 'different' in that we have never found she behaves like other children of her age, since she was very young.

Sometimes we think it's all in our imagination, then something will happen and we will be back to googling asd traits/ sensory processing disorder as she shows many traits of both.

She is about to start reception and I'm terrified for her. I feel like I constantly want to 'explain' her behaviour to people, yet I have no explanation other than 'she can be shy', 'she takes a while to warm up to new people/ situations', 'she sometimes behaves oddly when she's shy or overwhelmed'. Usually I say nothing as I don't want to draw DDs attention to her behaviour, on advice of health visitor.

Anyway I'm currently really struggling with her apparent rudeness. I just cannot get her to say please and thank you, despite drilling into her from a young age and always always modelling it in every interaction with her and praising her when she remembers. We've had a sticker chart at home where she gets a sticker when she remembers please or thank you unprompted and when she fills it she gets a treat. This works, but only at home.

Outside of home, she will snatch things offered to her and walk off. She will go up to people feeding their kids snacks, with her hand out. She will just help herself to other kids lunch, snacks, toys. It is so embarrassing. Today she was told off by a friend of mine for being rude (taking something without asking) and I have just felt like crying since as I know it reflects on me and I just don't know what to do anymore. Even my two year old has much better manners and he is barely verbal! When I speak to her about it, she says she 'just forgets'. She is apologetic but after the fact. In the moment, when corrected, she will just look hangdog/ guilty. I suspect she is also embarrassed.

To make matters worse, we recently moved to a new area, away from all the friends who she knew from birth, so all these interactions are the basis for people getting to know us as a family and I feel like it is harder to make friends here as people judge us on the way she behaves. We have had a couple of playdates where she has behaved really oddly and then people have backed off from us. I'm sure it isn't me as I am honestly a nice person 😁 and I have never had trouble making friends.

I was leaning towards mentioning this to her new teacher but don't know where to start and DH thinks she will be fine she's just a bit behind socially and that marking her out as different from day one will make it worse or make us look like 'those' parents if they think she's completely typical.

Does any of this sound normal for 4? Does anyone have an idea of what we should do next? How can I teach her better manners?!

My son has ASD and he still has to be reminded of social niceties at 17. If you think that mentioning something to her teacher would help her, i'd do it. They can keep an eye on her and, if your suspicion is correct, you'll have a head start on all the hoop-jumping that's required to get any help.

DS wasn't diagnosed until he was 10 so had spent years being told off for things he just didn't understand e.g. when he was in infants school, the teacher would tell them to take their coats off and hang them up but didn't mention hats and gloves so he'd keep them on and he'd get told off. He's very literal in his understanding of things.

I don't think you will be labelled as one of 'those' parents if you mention this to the teacher. I wouldn't make a big deal of it, but I would just mention that you have the impression she is rather behind socially for her age, and this is something that you're hoping will improve now she's at school. I think it will come across well that you are aware of her difficulties and are open with your communication with the school.

My DD is 5 and has ASD. She has to be constantly reminded of social niceties.
When my DD struggles, her school often make her social stories with pictures explaining why things are done a certain way.
There a lot of social stories on the internet which may be helpful to you.

I don’t think there’s any harm mentioning it to the teacher. There does seem to be a slight lack of awareness there - I don’t think that’s necessarily an indicator that she has ASD or any other needs, but it is worth looking out for and monitoring if it’s worrying you.

On a separate note - my mum, who is not British, has never understood this obsession with drumming into children to say please and thank you all the time. I remember having a friend round for a sleep over and afterwards my mum saying how annoying the constant ‘thank you for having me...’ every 20 mins was. Some people drill the ps and qs to the point where it becomes very insencere and I think most kids that age do need a lot of reminding or just say it robotically because they’re not really able to ‘mean’ it - gratitude is quite a grown up emotion. So that aspect is not necessarily something I would worry about too much.

Thanks all for your advice and replies. Chitra I like the way you have phrased that thanks, I will speak to the teacher in those terms I think and I will also look up social stories.

Puffhuffle5 thanks for that perspective regarding your mum. I do agree that the 'thanks' is rather meaningless at this age as I think they see food in particular as something that just appears without effort or expense! On a similar note, the other day she asked me "what does sorry mean?" Which really took me by surprise as she is actually really good at saying sorry without prompting if she hurts someone accidentally.

chitarra apologies for misspelling!

I just want to say I would never judge a parent based on their 4 yr old's behaviour. Honestly I might judge someone's parenting if I thought it was crap but I have never met a 4 yr old who wasn't a pain in the arse tbh, my own included.

My DS age 3.8 has been referred for an ASD assessment. He's generally good at please/thank you, which I have drummed in at home over and over, but he will randomly ignore people who ask him questions/talk to him which drives me nuts and I'm constantly having to remind him to respond. I find it so painful socialising with him these days so I understand where you're coming from. No harm mentioning it to the teacher? Seeing how her manners etc are in school?

Thanks Simkin. Me too. But I consistently find people confused by her interactions (understandable) and when their kids have picked up on it e.g. "miniwolves" is running away from me / "miniwolves won't share" I have had pointed responses like "I know that isn't how we behave but.." and "it's up to miniwolves mummy to speak to her". After one really nice playdate, DD had a huge tantrum on leaving. This was a while ago and we've got much better at leaving places but we were never invited back and the lady has avoided me since 😔

he will randomly ignore people who ask him questions/talk to him which drives me nuts and I'm constantly having to remind him to respond. I find it so painful socialising with him these days so I understand where you're coming from

Tempnamechange this is DD exactly.

Would I judge?

No, especially when you can see a parent trying to correct the behaviour.

That said, it does sound like she's behind socially. I say this kindly - my own son was the same.

Presented a bit differently.

Not really selfish per se but if a group wanted to one thing and he another he'd always go off do his own thing. Very stubborn in every regard.

We spoke to the school and tbh initially it didn't help until he got a great teacher who "got" him in year 1. School kept getting better from there.

Like a pp DS is very literal in his understanding (makes him brilliant at maths/sciences) and this was a pain when very little. You're comment about "what does sorry mean" really struck home.

I had that from DS along with "but I'm not sorry, so why pretend I am?" and "why say thank you" for something he didn't want/ask for/enjoy?

It was suggested we got him tested for autism but we decided not to (he later tested himself online at his own instigation aged 14 and the indication was that he had autistic traits). I won't go into why here.

As a teen he's doing brilliantly. Just got fantastic GCSE results, in Sixth Form with high ambitions for Uni with a great set of friends who simply see his "quirks" as part of who he is.

I don't want to frighten you, hence the information above re: a bright future but I would think about seeing your GP and speaking with her school.

I don't want to diagnose online, but I think autism is a possibility here that you might want to consider.

Sorry DD2 is ill today and won't move from me so had to type a hurried reply earlier.
I do really feel for you- I have been in that exact same position as you where my DD has been rude or had a huge tantrum. At the last play date we had she stripped off all her clothes and started trying to wear the boy's pyjamas which were on his bed.
When she started reception I used to deliberately distance myself from the other parents because I thought they would think oh she's such and such's mum and I would be embarrassed about her behaviour. I have got better at saying she's autistic and most parents are accepting although she is never going to be the person in her year with lots of party invites.
I would just be open with people especially if you are new to the area. You will probably find that they aren't even noticing her behaviour as much as you are.
I would definitely mention it to her teacher. They may be able to support. I would definitely check out social stories as that would explain visually why we say please and thank you etc. Children with social difficulties often respond well to these as actually they miss social cues so things that we take for granted they don't actually understand.

I agree with the above poster. My daughter is 5 and is autistic. I would mention it to the teacher. It's not labelling or or being "that parent". She may just be a bit behind socially but if it eventually becomes apparent that it's more than that it takes soo long to go through the process that it's better to bear it in mind and get the ball rolling early

Definitely mention it to the teacher. This sounds like DD1 who is 5 and in year 1 (she can be quite rude, is massively socially awkward and won't make eye contact etc) and we are just, very slowly, starting the assessment process after getting a paeds referral. However she has improved hugely socially in the last 6 months (I suspect this is down to learning behaviours though).

We mentioned early on to her reception teacher, although it did take him all year to be hmmm- you have a point(she has no LDs and they do tend to focus in on those kids first) 4yos have a really wide range of development especially if there are challenges at home. Regardless of diagnosis her school do lots of stuff to support kids with poorer interactions including nurture groups, lego therapy, board game clubs etc. Your school may do similar and while I doubt they'd rush that at the start of reception it's worth putting down a marker that you'd like to speak to the SENCO later in the year and see if you can get things going.

I don't have a four year old, so I can't say if it's typical or not. I think it probably is, some kids have great manners. Others haven't
caught on yet though in my opinion.

... if your child was otherwise sweet and a well behaved child, it wouldn't bother me whether she said hanks or not. As long as she's grateful/happy it's like whatever.

This also sounds like my eldest DS, who is now being diagnosed with ADHD but also has many autistic according to his ed psychologist. I’d also mention it to the school - I’ve found the teacher much more sympathetic towards DS since the diagnostic process began, which has helped him a lot at school. It won’t do any harm at any rate!

I also sympathise with you re other parents and their views. My experience too has been that I do think some ( quite a few?) parents do seem to judge. It’s easy to say to ignore them/ not worry but much harder to do! I’m still working on getting a thicker skin .

Btw your description of wondering if there is something/googling but then having periods when everything seemed fine was also exactly how I was with DS. For me having my second DC and seeing the difference as he grew up was what pushed me into acting on the ‘hunch’ I’d always had.