Parental alienation?

[miagerbies]

Hi. Looking for some advice please. I have 3 stepchildren , dsd is 11, dss1 who is coming up 10, and dss2 who is 6 and a half. Dh and I have been together 5 and a half years. I also have a ds, who is almost 9, from my first marriage.

We have dsc eow and 1 night in the week, this was working out OK except occasionally the kids, especially dss2, would say that he prefers it at his dms house and ask when he was going home. Once, dsd refused to get out of the car. Their dm is no help in these situations, just stands there smirking and makes no encouragement to go with dh.

More recently, dss1 said that he hates it here, apparently because their dm doesn't limit his screen time, as we do, and doesn't withdraw screen time for bad behaviour, which we also do. DSs2 made a huge display the other day of not wanting to come, "I hate daddy" etc, hitting and biting dh and struggling to get to his dm.

My dsc are screen obsessed and I wonder if a lot of it is to do with that. But it's getting us down. Dh seems resigned to it, but I hate it. They're always happy as anything when they are with us, and never mention their dm.

Their dm is very high conflict , the dsc are not allowed to mention me or dh to her, and the other day my dm was looking after dsd and dss1 and dsd threw a fit because she was worried her dm might see my dm, and be mad because she's my dm.

I told dh he needs to tell the dsc that this behaviour is hurtful. He isn't sure. Does anyone else deal with stuff like this?

*disclaimer - no I was not ow, they split up just before she found out she was pg with dss2**

Forcing the middle child to visit is wrong, let him stay at home with his mother.

soola so he should have no relationship with his father, because he wants a few extra hours on his ipad? OK then

I have two friends (fathers) who have had their children turned against them and lies told by the Mum so that they refuse or are in fear of visiting. All very calculated and much more blatent than what you discribe.
Have a look for a local branch of www.fnf-bpm.org.uk/ and if she really is alienating the children than maybe get some ideas from them.

Nothing you’ve mentioned amounts to parental alienation. Not even close. They live with their mum most of the time and prefer it there. You’ve drawn your own conclusions that this is down to screen time. Based on your own judgements of their mum. Maybe they just like being in their own home better?

She doesn’t actively encourage them into your home. Would be nice if she did (for their sake) but it’s not some major crime.

Maybe at some calm, happy point in the visit their dad could talk to them about the reluctance and crying at handover and really try to hear what they say about it. More useful than punishing or blaming their mum.

Suggesting the children should be spoken to is putting the blame on them, which I don't think is right from what you've said. They're children expressing a preference to be at home. If there's a difference in the way things such as screen time are dealt with then it will cause conflict. The best approach would be for your DH to agree on ground rules with his ex so there's a united front.

However, what stands out is DSD reaction to her mother seeing your mum. That's does suggest the Ex is fueling some of this, even more reason to not lay the blame on the children.

They're old enough for a conversation, so perhaps next to they're with you, then your DH needs to sit them down and ask them what could be done to help make their stay better for them. What activities would they like to do? That type of thing.

Thank you. This is a fairly recent thing, within the last year or so. The reason I assume it's to do with screen time is due to the fact that the dc are way more into screens now, being older. I'll try to have a chat with dsd tomorrow, we usually have half an hour girl time once the boys are in bed so might be a good time.

While I can appreciate the situation is fraught with difficulties, it's not parental alienation and it's unhelpful to label it as such.

The reaction from your DSD about your DM being seen by her DM sounds like fear of her DMs reaction to me.

The screen time thing. Meh, DS1 regularly says he wants to live with his dad as he's got no rules and we do. It's kids being kids.

Forcing it seems a bad idea, we've had this with DSD2 who really struggles to stay over because she doesn't cope well with being away from Mum. So we do days out, and that seems to suit her better without forcing it.

DSD1 comes and goes as she pleases now, she's 16.

I think that never telling the children they've been rude or hurtful is unhelpful too, YANBU on that score.

It sounds tough OP, I know how hard it can be especially when the DM isn't prepared to sit down and have a conversation.

But it's life, and being open to change and not forcing it is what got us through.

It's hard for bairns, having two sets of rules, two homes, two separate relationships.

It's also easy to play off adults who don't communicate with each other.

I hope it gets easier for you soon.

But please don't label it parental alienation, that's a separate and very specific thing.

Soola
Forcing the middle child to visit is wrong, let him stay at home with his mother.

An interesting response considering the usual MN narrative of red flags and children from previous relationships.

I would lay off telling the children they are being hurtful. They are only children and in an impossibly difficult situation. They can't talk about your home to their mother and feel distressed if they think their mother will see your mother has looked after them. No wonder they don't want to visit, or act up. They want a calm life and staying home with their mother makes sense to them since they won't have to deal with all the potential stress and trauma of their mothers reactions to your home life, even if they wouldn't be able to articulate this.

Please don't make life harder for them. Your DH needs to speak to his ex about how the DC feel they can't share what happens in his home with her. Please keep up contact and show the DC they are loved.

@BoneyBackJefferson My children’s father and I split when they were young and I did everything I could to ensure they saw their father.

At first he didn’t have a suitable homemade environment (drugs and sharing with other drug users) so I used to take them to his mothers house (grandma) where she has their own bedrooms for each child and they were in a cared for environment and it was up to him if he wanted to see his children there.

That worked out well but then he got his act together but had more children and my two were going every other weekend to stay at his house with him, his new partner and at the time their three young girls.

My daughter didn’t mind going as she loved playing with dolls, all the toys were geared towards girls and she was involved in helping with the little girls. The age difference wasn’t as great as it was with my son the eldest.

Every visit my son didn’t want to go. I made him. I made him go for years believing it was the best thing for him to establish a relationship with his father.

However, the school called me and said they had noticed a pattern that every two weeks on the Monday he would be attention seeking and causing disruption in the classroom.

This was the Monday he came back from being away at his fathers.

School recommended a family psychiatrist and I had to sit nearby but be involved as my son opened up to the chap.

It was upsetting to hear him tell this man how much he didn’t want to go and why.

The psychiatrist told me that in my sons best interests I should’ve force him to visit his father anymore as he was 9 years old and capable in the eyes of a family court (his words) of making a decision not to go.

So I said he didn’t have to go and the relief in my sons face made me feel quite upset that I had been making him go all those years.

But, I did say that when we visited grandma and his father might be there he was to be polite and say hello but could go upstairs if he wanted to.

The bad behaviour at school stopped and my son was much happier.

As he got older he added his father on Facebook and now my son is 24 they do have contact but on my sons terms.

That’s why I recommend never to force a child who is capable of expressing their wishes based on my personal experience.

Soola

I have no doubt that in some cases there are good reasons to prevent a child from seeing their NRP

But in the case of the OP she/they are the NRP there is nothing in the posts that relate to your situation, and as I posted, an NRP willingly not seeing their child is (on MN) a red flag and is frowned up.

@BoneyBackJefferson I now believe there is usually more going on when a child vehemently says they don’t want to go but on the surface it looks to be over trivial things like stricter parenting such as less time using devices.

I would at least let the child miss a couple of visits then he might realise that it wasn’t so bad at dad’s after all.

Soola

Or (playing devil's advocate) playing directly into the RP's hands.

There are many shades of grey here.

soola I feel you are projecting, I'm sorry for your situation but it is nothing like mine.

My dh is a great dad, and when the dsc are here they have a great time. We have more rules in place than they have at their dms, that is true, but it is things like screen time limits and being asked to clean up their own mess, neither apply to them at their mother's house.

Dss1 in particular is screen obsessed and has openly said that the main reason he doesn't like coming here is due to the fact that we don't let him sit there staring at an ipad for hours on end. If there was an actual, emotional reason for it then of course we'd look to make adjustments but it's not.

A lot of it is for effect, almost like a display for their dm to make sure that she knows that she is number one. At school events etc, the dsc don't even come over to us for fear of upsetting her.

My question really was is it worth speaking to the dsc, in particular dsd, about this as I feel 11 is old enough for us to have a chat.