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Suzy Lamplugh - 33 years since she went missing

291 replies

MarathonMo · 30/07/2019 14:14

33 years since she went missing and all evidence seemed to point to John Canaan as the man responsible.

David Videcette states he has compelling evidence that Canaan wasn't responsible & claims he now has the proof after a 3 year private investigation.

He believes the 'Mr Kipper' appointment was a red herring and Suzy left the office to go on a personal errand (?). Allegedly, the police missed a lot in their initial investigations.

He claims the police focused on the wrong man as they did in the Rachel Nickell case (Colin Stagg).

Perhaps one day this will be solved and her family will get closure.

new twist?

OP posts:
Ihaveseenalot · 01/08/2019 15:14

PP, quite possibly you're right that the author wants to add intrigue for his book, and I too found the number plate idea of his ludicrous, but the fact is that JC DID own that red car, and there was supposedly trace evidence of Suzy having been in that same car. However, I think that's all irrelevant: Mr Kipper was driving a black BMW that day, and that's the car that took Suzy away.

Another witness, a black taxi driver came forward to say that he'd collected a man who looked strikingly like the photofit of Mr Kipper from Stevenage Road (where he'd left his BMW) to Shorrolds Road, just 1.5 miles away. He said the man was holding a bottle of Champagne and pamphlet style property papers.

Mr Kipper clearly had pre-planned the abduction, hence him leaving the BMW at Stevenage Road: he intended to either try persuade or force Suzy into his car by first getting into hers. It's obvious.

The witness who lived in Shorrolds Road was the one who described Kipper's appearance, which looks remarkably like John Cannan. He looked out his window as he heard a couple arguing in the road. They possibly argued because when he'd arrived 15 minutes late - and IF Suzy had forgotten the keys - she may have told him they'd need to drive back her office to collect them, and no way did he want to chance being seen. There's also the possibility that Suzy was surprised it was John Cannan who she'd allegedly been dating, and was annoyed with him for fooling her into meeting him. It's not usual for an estate agent to argue with a prospective buyer is it?

Another witness, a van driver, said he'd been forced to swerve between the two locations when Suzy's white car was being driven fairly fast and haphazardly. He looked and saw the woman driver staring at him and said it looked like Suzy. She had a dark haired man in the passenger seat.

Another witness said he had gone for a run in the park just by Stevenage Road when a white car came along pressing its horn non-stop. He too said the woman stared at him with a scared look on her face, and had the same man next to her. It's also strange that Suzy parked her car haphazardly without applying the handbrake or locking the driver's door. She also left her purse in the door pocket. That suggests she was forced possibly by knifepoint and forced into the BMW.

Another couple did say they spotted a couple who looked like both Suzy and Mr Kipper laying on the grass in the park with a bottle of Champagne, which sounds odd, and could just be coincidence, but if they had once dated it's possible he forced her to lay there against her will and she was simply too terrified of him to try and escape. Whoever that couple were they never came forward, but they may have had no connection at all and for whatever reason didn't/couldn't come forward...

Another witness, a shopkeeper, said the same man fitting the description came into his shop early morning and asked for the most expensive bottle of Champagne. He vividly remembered him and even described his voice and demeanour.

John Cannan was known to woo women with Champagne, and it would be remarkable if this Mr Kipper also turned up to view a property holding a bottle of Champagne and fitted the exact description of Cannan too, right down to his build, height, colouring, facial features, and clothing.

John Cannan frequented the Fulham wine bars where Suzy used to go, and he was never able to account for his movements that day.

There's never been any point in Cannan admitting to Suzy's murder because the judge ordered that he must stay in prison for the maximum amount of time, so JC wouldn't have got a reduced sentence in admitting he'd killed her. Besides that, he's a psychopath and enjoys the power he has over the police and Suzy's family by refusing to tell them where she is.

Ihaveseenalot · 01/08/2019 15:23

Tartan Texan

I too find it odd that the key issue wasn't raised almost immediately.

If they only had one set of keys they'd have told the police then that she'd left without them, it's a hugely important fact.

I don't see the point of having duplicate keys on the same key ring, but if that's how they worked then they had their reasons. But keys were found very quickly which sent easy, especially if the sellers weren't living in the property. It's most unusual to give estate agents two sets of keys for viewings, so I'd guess they did indeed have just one set and somehow they either got mislaid - Maybe Suzy picked them up then put them to one side while taking her purse from her bag - and they weren't discovered immediately. I can't think of any logical reason why she'd not take them with her other than she forgot to in her rush.

DGRossetti · 01/08/2019 15:36

The problem I have with the JC theory - neat as it may be - is it is causing people to view the events of the 28th with a view to fitting them into JCs known behaviour. Which should mean that it's hardly surprising he seems to be the perpetrator. It also tempts people to discount/ignore/even hide any evidence which then contradicts that. And we're back to Colin Stagg again.

I'm happy to slot JC into the "most probable suspect" slot. But without more than speculation and a chain of coincidences, it wouldn't get a guilty verdict from me, if I was on the jury.

For me, the most singular fact that supports the JC theory is the lack of any similar abductions or murders since he has been inside. Which is why DVs allegations are so interesting ... returning to my assertion that it would be less likely SLs killer could have remained at large without killing again. The only exception I would note is if SLs abduction and likely murder were not the actions of a criminally deviant sexual psychopath. But if that were to be the answer, then it lifts the whole case into the one-in-a-million.

Just to run a counter theory - and it's worth mentioning it because no one else has - the investigation never seemed to look into SLs day job as an estate agent. Is there any chance that something from that world was responsible for her abduction ? Maybe a prank from a rival estate agents that went terribly wrong and ended in a hurried burial and 33 years of terrified silence ?

I don't really care how far fetched or otherwise it may sound - but unless the police followed that trail and demonstrated it unlikely, then it could be used as an alternate theory to try and establish reasonable doubt.

Again, you had to be there, but 1986 London was a hotbed of property transactions with very little oversight. There were regular punch-ups between agents trying to bag the juicier properties and areas like Fulham were quite on the up and up.

TartanTexan · 01/08/2019 16:42

For what it’s worth, DG, I think you might be spot on re: Suzy’s profession/former life. I think evidence around the keys might be important in that respect.

CrimeThrillerGirl · 01/08/2019 17:23

I think the issue surrounding the keys just highlights how poor the police's investigations have been from start to finish. Nobody in the police seems to have asked the right questions of the right people at the right time? Keys are the sort of thing that are easily missed when there is panic, mayhem, stress and worry in the middle of the night about a colleague. Nobody - not even the police officers - seem to have been thinking logically where the keys are concerned.

And if the keys thing has been missed - God knows what other simple stuff they've missed in Suzy's case?

If Videcette is shouting his mouth off in the press about a named suspect, then he's putting his private detective reputation on the line and potentially his livelihood? I can only think that must mean he is very, very confident in what he has found out.

Besides the keys, what if he has uncovered a shedload of additional examples of the police f**king up in Suzy's case? What are the police going to look like then?

Much like the Barry George and Colin Stagg fiascos. We've all seen it happen before, when the police are fixated on putting the wrong man behind bars. They end up with egg on their faces.

DGRossetti · 01/08/2019 17:37

Much like the Barry George and Colin Stagg fiascos. We've all seen it happen before, when the police are fixated on putting the wrong man behind bars. They end up with egg on their faces.

Something the hang'em high brigade forget or ignore in their slightly questionable enthusiasm for executions. Plus the rarely considered fact that hanging the wrong person leaves a killer free to kill again. Evans and Christie being one example (of course there might be many more. After all why bother continuing an investigation when the killer is hanged).

I don't think the police deserve quite so much criticism. Going back to that exact day, that exact hour and that exact place they really had no reason to suspect foul play from the initial call (which I believe was one of the things Diana Lamplugh tried to address with the SL foundation ?). So their procedures were more centred around the presumption that SL had gone off without letting anyone know. Again, not that unusual back in 1986. And if the police did treat every report of a missing person as a suspected abduction from the first moment they would (a) do fuck all else all day long and (b) have to put up with people complaining about wasted resources.

By the time it was apparent SLs disappearance was more sinister than first believed, that golden hour was gone.

CrimeThrillerGirl · 01/08/2019 18:29

"By the time it was apparent SLs disappearance was more sinister than first believed, that golden hour was gone."

So they weren't treating it as a murder enquiry from the outset? But instead treating it half-heartedly as a "missing persons who might turn up in a bit"?

I can totally understand that - don't something like 99% of missing persons end up turning up?

And this is why everyone has missed the issue around the keys? And this is why potentially many other things have been missed? If it wasn't a murder enquiry during the "Golden Hour", they didn't pay attention to any of these basic issues.

Then, in 2002 the police realise they've massively messed up that original 1986 enquiry by missing the boat on the Golden Hour? So they are desperate to finger Cannan in order to placate Diana Lamplugh and exonerate themselves?

Now I am starting to see why the police's whole Suzy Lamplugh investigation is such a mess... Sad

DGRossetti · 01/08/2019 18:53

So they weren't treating it as a murder enquiry from the outset? But instead treating it half-heartedly as a "missing persons who might turn up in a bit"?

What would you have them do ?

Remember you are writing with 33 years hindsight.

I am no fan of the police, but they really can't win at times ...

Ihaveseenalot · 01/08/2019 19:06

DGRosetti, what you're forgetting is that JC was the ONLY suspect in Suzy's disappearance- and he ticked each and every box. There are no other suspects. Even the total stranger who witnessed the argument of the couple outside the property described JC almost perfectly: that wasn't his imagination.

Your suggestion that it may have been a rival estate agent is so far-fetched it negates all the other points you make...and I'm sure the detectives working on the case delved into all aspects of Suzy's life including that of her colleagues.

Nor has there ever been anything to suggest Suzy had a "secret" in her former life or otherwise. She was a respectable career woman bred from a middle-class loving home; her father was a solicitor and she was educated, popular, well-liked, and extremely conscientious and professional.

I think far too much emphasis is being put on the keys: this has just popped up, but has it really taken 30 years to learn that there may have been two sets of keys, or that Suzy may have forgotten to pick the one set of keys up from her desk as she dashed around collecting property details, her purse, her own car/house keys etc? After all, Suzy wouldn't have deliberately left the keys on the hook board would she?

As for the police who investigated back then, none of us have privy to what they did or what they discovered. They don't disclose all their findings to the public.

As for dragging up past cases of other killings and making comparisons, no two serial murderer's MO is identical. But what we DO know, is that JC was arrested and imprisoned for murdering Shirley Banks just one year after Suzy's disappearance - and there's been no further abductions/rapes and murders of women in the same flagrant way he carried them out since he's been locked up. Which suggests even more that he was responsible for the murder of Suzy - and that's without the stack of incriminating evidence, albeit circumstantial and taken from witnesses. And there's STILL the forensic fact that both he and Suzy had once been inside the same red Ford Fiesta.

As for the day it happened, the police weren't called until the early evening. It's correct that sometimes people "disappear " of their own accord, and that isn't something that just happened in 1986: it's happened since records began and is still happening to this day. But when an adult does disappear, the police have to look at everything before deciding whether they've simply gone of their own accord or something sinister has happened to them...

The "golden hour" that's been alluded to is a medical term when someone's been critically injured in an accident, it's not a police term, and police would never start a major investigation into the disappearance of an adult who's vanished within the last hour...that's ridiculous.

In the event, Suzy's disappearance was major news by the next day, which in itself is unusual and shows how concerned the police were that Suzy's disappearance was extremely terrifying. They clearly knew very quickly that Suzy had been abducted - which she was. All the evidence proves that.

CrimeThrillerGirl · 01/08/2019 19:07

@DGRossetti My previous post was totally agreeing with you about the thorny issue of how police treat cases as missing persons. I agree the police are between a rock and a hard place where missing persons are concerned. This is why Claudia Lawrence and Suzy Lamplugh and other missing cases are still unsolved because the "Golden Hour" is missed, but at the time (and still to this day) there is no actual evidence of murder.

So this is why in 2000-2002, when Diana Lamplugh understandably goes to town on the police about the strength of their original investigation (wouldn't we all if it were our own child?) - the police are so quick to placate her by naming John Cannan and closing it down.

It all makes a lot more sense to me now, why the police/CPS have never been able to prosecute Cannan for it. There is no tangible evidence on him because he didn't do it. He's been used to appease everyone and gloss over the holes missed in the original investigation. Otherwise we'd have had a trial by now.

CrimeThrillerGirl · 01/08/2019 19:11

@Ihaveseenalot

Taken from the College of Policing website: www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/investigation-process/#golden-hour

Golden hour
The golden hour is the term used for the period immediately after an offence has been committed, when material is readily available in high volumes to the police.

Positive action in the period immediately after the report of a crime minimises the amount of material that could be lost to the investigation, and maximises the chance of securing the material that will be admissible in court.

bottleofbeer · 01/08/2019 19:23

The CPS won't go to trial unless they think there's a realistic chance of conviction. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I don't know, I don't work for them and have never seen the documents relating to the evidence against him.

I'll be there are a few dead women attributed to the likes of Bundy, similar MO, no real leads. It must've been him, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Doesn't change the fact he was a total psycho that murdered a lot of girls and women. Doesn't mean he was responsible for all of the murders pinned on him.

Sometimes a nice, neat line under a case is better for the police - even if they can't prove it. We know it was him but there just isn't enough evidence.

On balance of probabilities, the most damning being forensic evidence that they had both been in the same car then yeah, it probably was JC. Without that bit of evidence, it's a really shaky case.

CrimeThrillerGirl · 01/08/2019 19:35

I don't believe Suzy's DNA has ever been found in any car used by Cannan or otherwise, to date. (Apart from in her own vehicle). I think this is just a rumour started by someone that once appeared in the press and has become an urban myth. The police have never said this to be the case, not did they refer to it in their press conferences. And the CPS have never referred to it in their statements.

bottleofbeer · 01/08/2019 19:40

I'd never heard that before today on this thread either tbh. It's quite damning even if it didn't prove they'd been in the car at the same time, it'd be a coincidence too far for me to think there was an innocent explanation.

It's entirely possible this man she was seeing and wanted to dump did something to her without him having to be a notorious killer. Why did nobody in her close circle know who he was? Not even a name?

lyralalala · 01/08/2019 21:01

I think killers like Cannan, Peter Tobin, Fred West and the likes of Robert Black are a double edged sword when it comes to unsolved cases.

Because of their activities it is highly likely they have other victims that haven’t been discovered yet (and may never be), but at the same time that likelihood also makes it very easy to make assumptions and attribute things to them whilst trying to make the available evidence fit.

Ihaveseenalot · 01/08/2019 21:39

@CrimeThrillerGirl I stand corrected regarding the "Golden Hour"

However, what actual evidence was there to find when Suzy disappeared? She wasn't left laying in a road or blown up...she'd vanished into thin air. So what tangible evidence did the police have to seize, except for her car - which was found the same day she'd gone missing?

John Cannan was wasn't just a suspect in 2112 - he was a suspect as early as 1987

bottleofbeer · 01/08/2019 21:42

Yes exactly, Lyralalala. He looks good for it, say it was him, our hands are tied without enough evidence though.

She'd had a few dates with this man she wanted to end it with. Yet it seems nobody knew his name, not even a first name. Or else I'm sure it would have been made public. None of her friends, colleagues or family knew? Everything was pinned on a Mr Kipper but afaik it was never stated that the man she was seeing had been called John or whatever.

Which seems quite secretive to me. Claudia Lawrence had all kinds of insinuations made about her, and I'm absolutely not saying SL wasn't whiter than white but to apparently never even mention a Christian name to anybody is quite frankly, odd. Especially as there had been a few dates and she'd told her mum she was uncomfortable with him and wanted to end it.

Maybe they did know his name and it was kept quiet for operational reasons but how much effort did the police put into finding him or was it purely focused on Mr Kipper? Did this man she was seeing ever come forward?

A boyfriend her mum knew she was planning to ditch would surely be of massive interest in a missing person's case?

Soola · 01/08/2019 21:45

If she told her mother the name of the man she was seeing and it was revealed in the press it could influence a jury if anyone is brought to trial.

bottleofbeer · 01/08/2019 21:50

Anything can be argued wrt prejudicing a trial. It's the first thing the defence do, try and play the unfair trial card.

I can't see how naming this man would have prejudiced a trial. Since he was pretty much never mentioned again, was he found and eliminated maybe? Wouldn't the police have said something like "we're trying to locate a man she had a brief relationship with"? Or something like that anyway.

Or did the assume he was Mr Kipper AKA JC? Did they find evidence she had been seeing JC? The date man seems to just be a footnote in it all.

CrimeThrillerGirl · 01/08/2019 22:01

In terms of seizing physical evidence - yes, there appear to be no obvious crime scenes in Suzy's or Claudia Lawrence's case. No bloodied murder scene or dead body.

So, apart from the DNA/prints/detritus that could be recovered from Suzy's home/car/workplace - the police had little to go on. I agree.

But forensics are only useful if you've got a match to check them against. If they aren't Cannan's and they aren't on the national database or any of the familial services available - they're useless.

Going back to the article in the Mail:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7298017/Retired-detective-says-knows-killed-Suzy-Lamplugh.html

Videcette said: 'The police have missed or ignored the anomalies in the timelines leading up to Suzy’s disappearance and in the period afterwards. Analysing these timelines and understanding them in detail has been crucial in cracking the mystery of how and why Suzy went missing.'

Just like the keys, clearly he's got something there the police have again overlooked. What his angle is, I'm not sure. But I'd like to find out.

lyralalala · 01/08/2019 22:03

It must be so difficult when someone just vanishes into thin air. If you don't have a trail of CCTV following them exactly then you just have so little to go on.

If the missing woman is known to have a connection to JC, or a Fred West, then you have at least a "right, she knows this person, could they be to blame", but then you add someone like Peter Tobin to the mix - complete stranger, buried bodies (in the first two cases) miles from where he picked them up and left no pool of blood or CCTV trail.

You'd think now it would be impossible becaue of the amount of CCTV, but Claudia Lawrence, and the likes of Allan Bryant, shows you can still vanish without trace. And again with her case it shows if the "he did it" instinct latches onto one person it can lead the case in completely the wrong direction and then you can't go back and get that vital hour back.

Ihaveseenalot · 01/08/2019 22:09

@CrimeThrillerGirl I'm afraid you're completely wrong.

It certainly isn't an urban myth that trace evidence of Suzy's DNA was found in the red Ford Sierra, nor was it nonsense that the made-up registration plates JC put on the orange mini of his known last victim wasn't done for some perverted satisfaction.

The police asked Cannon the significance of the letters and numbers, and he replied it could stand for Suzy LamPlugh. He said it. And that's the sort of sick things psychopaths get kicks out of.

Are you saying JC didn't say that? How would you know he didn't? You don't know at all - you're just making assumptions, which is fine, but I'm stating actual facts.

peoplepill.com/people/john-cannan/

bottleofbeer · 01/08/2019 22:10

Yes, it seems to me the police took too much at face value at the time. The key thing is blatantly obvious to an armchair detective, how could she have got in without them? She couldn't. So you'd have to ask what she was actually planning to do.

I don't buy that in a rush she'd forget them. Having those keys was crucial to the viewing. I've had estate agents turn up with the wrong keys to a property I wanted to view but never without any key at all.

lyralalala · 01/08/2019 22:19

There was a post elsewhere (not on here) that mentioned the keys in a way that hinted very strongly at who they think Videcette is blaming that lasted 3 minutes before getting the whole chat deleted, but I don’t want to get the thread pulled by repeating it
If it gets posted again I’ll link to anyone who wants it

bottleofbeer · 01/08/2019 22:21

Ohh Lyralalala interesting!

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