Do non NHS people realise how bad it is at the moment?

[DoyouknowJo]

I had to justify to my managers manager why I needed to spend £7 on stationery. Stationery. Some biros, some staples and a box of envelopes.

One of my colleagues chairs broke and she was told to apply to charitable funds to get a new one.

Everything is held together with sticky tape and blu tac (literally and figuratively)

We have four members of admin staff bunched into a desk meant for two, because there is no money to pay IT to put a new port in on their desks.

Waste toner cartridges are on lockdown. If yours is full you should take a scalpel, cut the seal open, empty it and then stick it back together and put it back in the printer. Don't worry about all your printing then being covered in smudgy ink. We're broke ya know.

And some fucking idiot turned up to A&E today...because their arm has been hurting for two months and they are off on holiday tomorrow and could we sort it please.

I'm thinking of starting an anonymous instagram account to get all this crap out.

If you really want sole destroying userxx try going to the doctors over and over with the same set of symptoms and they won’t consider anything because they want to clear up one symptom at a time and that particular symptoms is just getting worse until you end up in A &E being diagnosed with terminal cancer.

Or being in agony and on a zimmerframe for 7 years whilst raising a baby and a toddler and the consultant you see every 3 months won’t actually look at you never mind examine you or send you for an MRI because an MRI costs £300 and the NHS isn’t made of money. Then being shouted at because the weekly physio isn’t working and you aren’t getting any better and they think it is because you aren’t actually helping yourself.
I was in agony 24/7 and couldn’t sleep because the pain was so bad.

Only to find you go private and they get an MRI done and find you have been walking around with slipped discs for 7 years and I actually didn’t have anything wrong with my hip.

The NHS has operated this health lottery for decades.

If doctors actually listened to patients and took on board the combination of symptoms they might in the long run actually save money.

If you look at my issue with my back no one looked at how the pain started. No one asked me they were so focussed on the pain in my hip (apparently deferred pain from my back)
No one looked at my back till I sat down with an osteopath who diagnosed me within 15 minutes.

My partner works closely with the ngs and tells me horror stories of how money is wasted. Contrators charging 100x the price of things because of nhs procedure, staff who take the piss and managers with little or no experience. So yes, I do. The nhs is amazing in parts but it's being destroyed by greed.

Thats utterly disgusting @Oliversmumsarmy about the same symptoms and cancer and I can really believe that happened.

Also when doctors say the phrase "you are too young to have that" THAT BOILS MY PISS! Age and health dont work together sometimes!!!

On the other hand, my friend's cancer op last month was put off until August because her consultant only works once a month.

“The nhs is a leaky bucket” is pure daily mail propaganda that’s been swiller for years. As is the blame on new labour as if that negates current Tory behaviour?!?!
It would not be more efficient if it were private and has been shown to be one of the most efficient healthcare systems in the world.
Believe the daily mail trollop if you like bit then pray you do t become poor or seriously unwell & need the NHS.
It really is one of our biggest assets.
Is a supreme achievement of those about to profit from selling it of that they’ve convinced us all that it’s sh-t.
It could be a lot better if we funded it to the same level that a private system would cost.
But private really honestly wouldn’t be better. They have lots of “physicians associates” & “nurse associates” who almost work as nurses but aren’t quite as well trained, and almost doctors without medical school training (2yr post grad vs 5y undergrad) & who don’t have the same responsibilities. Private companies will get away with employing the least qualified & cheapest staff & charging exorbitant fees.
Who will make money out of the NHS sell off? Really think about it? Not you & me..
Who will be able to afford truly good private care, again I doubt it’s you or me.
NHS & social care funded properly could be fixed & make people far happier than privatisation or part privatisation.
I work in a Hospital and do not envy GPs or Med Regs. When I started training GP was attractive. Not any more! Has anyone seen the massive shortfall in applicants??! GP is not cushty by a long shot. Same with psych. Junior doctors going into training has fallen from around 80/90% in 2009 to 50% now. Is incredibly sad. The nursing crisis is worse.
No point fighting or blaming anything other than the government & people who want to sell it off for profit.

The “waste”’here n there is nothing compared to the private sector, and isn’t a reason to dismantle the NHS.
It’s designed to take attention away from the core, most important issue & that is that they’re trying to sell it to the US. They’ve even introduced us private healthcare structures such as the physicians assocs & nurse assocs to make it easier.
Need to focus on the big important things else it’ll be gone.

The TTIP & brexit are making it easier. The bus was a ridiculous ploy. Jeremy hunt wrote a chapter in a book on how to sell off the NHS. If you think that’s not their game you are being well fooled.

If the NHS stopped treating international citizens who are health tourist without payment up front or valid travel insurance like other countries do they would not be broke. In France I had to pay up front to see a doctor when i had an emergency allergic reaction and then pay again for needing adrenaline shot. In UK we treat everyone regardless of whether they are UK citizens or paid in NICs. Many woman come to UK for a safe delivery of their baby and it cost NHS billions of pounds every year. It should be stopped.

@caringcarer you are clearly not British from the way you write. Turkey voting for Christmas?

'cost NHS billions' just in foreign women having their babies?!...where is your source for this bold claim?

ChocoholicsAsylum

That is only a couple of instances where the NHS has not served myself or my family at all.

Friend moved abroad a few years ago. She didn’t feel well and was nervous at the cost of private treatment.

She went to the private doctors who charged her for an initial appointment and extensive blood tests.
He gave her a full examination and listened to what all of her symptoms were.

A week later and he had come up with a full diagnosis and treatment plan and she went on her way. All cured and able to resume her life.

In the UK she would have gone to the dr and he would send her for 1 or 2 blood tests then try and treat one of the symptoms and she would continue to return to the doctor for years not getting a proper diagnosis as the symptom the doctor was trying to treat hadnt cleared up until she would have probably collapsed and blue lighted to A &E and all the tests would be done again and finally after several days in hospital they might come up with a diagnosis.

In the meantime she would have been living in discomfort for years.

Cost of private doctor sub £500

Cost of treating in the UK probably over £10,000

That is where a huge chunk of the money is going.

Multiply that by a million people each year (not taking into account the amount who then have to give up theirs job and end up on disability) the amount is astronomical

@Kazzy you're spot on with the patient shaming! Plus I always think as a pp said given most clinic sessions end up running LATE if everyone DID turn up they'd be screwed!!

Where I am the GP surgeries operate a "2 strikes" policy where if you're even just a few mins late that marks against you and do it twice and they deregister you. Not sure how legal that is but as all the GP's in the county do it it's very hard as a patient to challenge it!

Something else that I NEVER get an answer on from all the posters on mn who claim to be GP's is why patients risk being deregistered if they make a formal complaint. It's again a particular problem where I live now but I know it was an issue at other places I've lived and family/friends in other parts of the U.K. Comment on this being an issue in their locality.

Yes the higher authorities can get involved and insist a patient be registered with a GP in their locale but by the time things have reached that stage patients can easily be without GP registration for months! I'm sure that also contributes to a&e visits

Re cancer - if you look at the more common cancers there are often lifestyle factors in the "possible causes" - Drs/scientists are very reluctant to give definites on such things (look how long it took for cigarettes to be accepted as a known strong carcinogen, that wasn't just big tobacco wielding its might)

Even with that in mind (that Drs tend to avoid saying X definitely caused y) cancer research uk says 4 in ten cancers are preventable.

People are unaware of the risk factors to a fairly large degree (eg 18/20 not knowing the links between alcohol consumption and cancer)

And "unknown" doesn't mean the cause isn't lifestyle either because we don't know!

I come from a family where there's a genetic predisposition to certain female cancers, but as it happens they are cancers that taking the contraceptive pill REDUCES The risk - and yet I've come across DOCTORS who don't know this even a few who wrongly thought it increased the risk for these cancers.

And when i say "lifestyle factors"
I don't just mean personal decisions but things like pollution too. My dad worked in an industry when he first left school that involved handling without protection something that is now a known carcinogen and is handled very very differently. He's lost several people to cancer from working with that.

What I mean by all this is NOT that I am blaming patients particularly cancer sufferers at all! Instead I blame those who are responsible for not only educating the general public as to factors which increase risk (which seems to take a woefully slow time from the knowledge being gained to it becoming broadcast publicly) but also for helping the public to address those factors in a way which isn't shaming or victim blaming (which we KNOW doesn't bloody work anyway)
And in addressing environmental factors which affect choice - eg advertising. Personally I don't know why alcohol advertising is still allowed given the harm we know it can cause - no different to tobacco imo.

I also disagree with what you say about pharmacists, they are actually highly qualified and very knowledgeable hcps. I've 2 friends who are pharmacists (1 is "high street" and 1 hospital based) who really know their stuff and any pharmacist I've consulted for minor ailments or meds queries has always been spot on.

Weirdly, I finished your post with less sympathy for NHS staff than I started with. I am hugely concerned and offended about the almost decade of severe underfunding the NHS has suffered under Tory austerity. I do know that the NHS has run out of financial petrol and is now only running on the fumes of staff goodwill, expecting frontline staff to do more and more with less and less and not complain. It's crazy that you don't have basic office supplies or tech support and are under so much pressure. But that is not the patients' fault any more than it is yours, and whether they go to A&E, a walk-in centre or the GP they are using NHS resources whichever way they go. GPs and walk-in centres are also squeezed and sometimes appointments are very hard to come by, so people go to A&E. Especially people with children they are worried about. I have marched for better NHS funding and I strongly advocate funding the service properly and appreciating the staff. But blaming the patients for seeking care is not right either.

Another thread I was posting on recently was supposedly started by a GP (though for a variety of reasons myself and others were highly sceptical they were actually a GP) and the attitude to patients from op and some other posters who claimed to be hcps was bloody appalling!

@alsohuman - I do agree as a fellow old gimmer who was raised by very "naturalistic" parents (in terms of approach to health care) I do think self care could be a very good thing to add in to certain tv shows, ads, posters etc. I got my very first qualification in first aid aged 13 and have updated it whenever I can since. I've been raised for minor ailments/injuries to use this knowledge plus "folk remedies" eg baking soda for indigestion, arnica for bruises etc

But then that's why I get pissed off when we DO need to access Nhs and we're treated like time wasting, exaggerating "neurotic" "hysterical" women! NO! I know my body and I know my dd and I've taught her to heed her body too so if we're using the Nhs it's because we need to!

I also had a thread running for a while on the shocking misogyny in healthcare, that was a real eye opener!

I agree that making nursing vocational rather than academic is absolutely possible if the will is there. @sirzy - that's exactly the problem attitude I was referencing earlier that my friend is coming up against, current nursing trainees think sorting bed pans, cleaning up vomit, even doing regular basic obs are "beneath them" they think they're too good to do such "menial work" it's why I questioned the recruitment and training practices, because any nurse worth their salt KNOWS that doing the "menial" jobs are an opportunity to build a caring relationship with patients AND can be an opportunity to observe and assess symptoms and status of patients. WHAT ON EARTH is going wrong in training that they don't understand that?!

And I say all that as one of the graduate nurses! But this was quite some time ago and through the recruitment and training processes it was still clear that the focus was on patient care - not academics and future career advancement!

Interesting article here on the subject, note the last paragraphs prediction!

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/12/nurses-nursing-qualifications-degrees-nmc-rcn

@Miljah - there's a HUGE difference between not having even GCSE level of education and/or lacking enough command of the English language to practice (and I'm sick of those of us complaining about this being accused of racism! I have no problem at all being treated by non-Brits or by people for whom English isn't their first language, I've lived and had healthcare abroad no problem. I DO have a problem when I'm presented with an hcp who has so little English they can barely understand basic info like name and dob! It does NOT inspire confidence that they will understand a long complicated medical history. On one occasion I experienced it took about 10 mins until the hcp understood pneumonia!)

Before nurses were required to have degrees they WERE still expected to have a level of academic ability beyond basic secondary education. I see no reason why we can't return to that.

The article I've linked describes the issue perfectly:

"It must never become more important to write about care than to give it"

Unfortunately I feel with a significant number of trainees/new recruits we're already AT that point!

@helenadove - I agree, employers and schools demanding unnecessary sick notes and requiring "proof" of sickness and that patients get appointments convenient for them are absolutely NOT helping matters! Employees certainly don't feel they dare risk not complying as its SO much an employers market now and they have sod all rights! Especially if under 2 years employment. This is further compounded by the fact that losing your job for not complying with such nonsense could well also mean that person is ineligible for benefits for a considerable amount of time!

@longtalljosie - I think it may have been that programme but it was in the 00's?

@cerseilanisterinthesnow - that's shocking - both the lack of equipment and the fact you can't afford training when from sounds of things you'd be a perfect candidate. The abolishment of the bursary was an appalling decision and one I am certain was made for ideological reasons as part of the "making the Nhs look useless" plan

"It makes me cross there's money for this but not our healthcare." Exactly! I've worked for mod and know exactly what you mean. And it's not just mod, though that dept definitely gets preferential treatment under tory governance. It's why I get so cross when posters on here or people in real life say "but there isn't enough money to go around" yes there is! It's just being spent wrongly because those deciding the spending are biased and prejudiced. Think I said it in an earlier post but i think it bears repeating

STOP MP's FROM BEING ALLOWED TO HAVE SHARES AND OTHER VESTED INTERESTS IN COMMERCIAL COMPANIES.

I'd bet good money the ones voting to spend money on these wasteful projects are the ones with bloody shares or their family have shares in the companies getting the contracts! It's corrupt!

"That plastic spoon analogy is absolutely spot on." Totally agree.

"politicians trying to tinker with things they don't actually understand and then blaming the people tasked with putting them into effect with the results." Also true - Canada isn't perfect but that post brought to mind the photo/meme that was circulating on SM at one point where it was pointed out (I'm making up as can't remember exact details but you bright people will get the gist I'm sure) eg the health minister was an ex dr, the agriculture minister an ex farmer etc whereas here we've got currently (next bit actual)

PM - short time as a banker then straight into politics

Chancellor of the exchequer - short amount of time vaguely spent "in business" in exec roles then into politics

Home sec - former banker! And then into politics

Sec for fco - again vague "in business" roles, could be argued he has a VERY SLIGHT connection as he once taught English as a foreign language but really that's nowhere near to understanding the complexities of this role...and then into politics aged 39

Brexit sec - insurance clerk! Then into politics in his 30's

Sec of state for defence AND women and equalities (do neither deserve someone full time?) PR...and then into politics

Sec. Of state for justice - does at least have a legal qualification but worked in corporate law briefly...and then into politics

Health & social care - computers and banking! Before going into politics

Education sec - worked in hospitality briefly

International trade - an ex GP!

Business, energy and industrial strategy - at least has a PhD in a relevant field but no real experience

Environment, food and rural affairs - former journalist!

Transport - former broadcasting exec (who's cock ups have cost the country BILLIONS and shouldn't be in the cabinet at all!)

Housing, communities and local govt - background in international law!

International development - highly dubious claims to knowledge in the area, makes much of his "military career" which lasted all of 5 months!

Digital, culture, media and sport - a former criminal lawyer

Work and pensions - a former corporate executive who's degree was in history!

Sec of state for Scotland - business law background

Sec of state for Wales - corporate investment background

Sec of state for NI - a former tax manager (with apparently zero awareness of the situation there, or understanding of the history)

I mean really! No wonder we're in such a Fucking mess! and yes before anyone says it I'm aware the shadow cabinet aren't much bloody better!!

No to vocational nursing. Where patients have a higher ratio of graduate and postgraduate trained nurses their outcomes are much better.

cancer research uk says 4 in ten cancers are preventable

Dps cancer was preventable if drs had put all of his symptoms together but instead decided he was being too dramatic when he asked if he could have bowel cancer like his father.

They decided to treat one symptom at a time. Different drs, different treatments.

One tried to manhandle a lump in dps stomach which turned out to be an abscess back into his body as he said it was a hernia

Took best part of 6 months before Dp was near to collapse and ended up in A&E to be diagnosed

@helenadove and stillme1 - you're spot on! I rarely feel qualified to comment as I'm so long out of it now and it's changed massively but certainly when I worked in elderly care I was aware of this happening occasionally, I don't doubt at all that it's now a major issue (short sighted, false economy early discharging of patients) the "matrons" I had as my bosses were pretty robust in not accepting residents back to the nursing homes if they felt it was detrimental to their care, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're now being overruled - and perhaps the current incumbents of (whatever that role is now called) are less assertive, due to inexperience, lacking confidence in asserting themselves on this and not having support from community hcps.

It's a disgrace!

@Walkaround - part of the reason the previously unpaid (and largely unappreciated) female carers who used to take on the responsibility of caring for elderly relatives is because wages are too low and other living costs (particularly housing) are too high for 1 adult to earn enough to support a family! 2 incomes are needed now just to cover basic living costs - and a considerable number of older people also don't seem to understand this. Benefits for carers certainly don't even come close to a second wage either!

"Tory brexit = nhs sold off. USE YOUR VOTES PEOPLE, VOTE LABOUR BEFORE THE NHS IS GONE." Totally agree - the problem is we're not even getting a chance to bloody vote! We're facing a SECOND new PM being brought in without an election and frankly both candidates are SHITE!

"The NHS is broken, not fit for purpose, and needs drastic reform." This is EXACTLY what they want you to think - NO organisation can work effectively if not properly funded and supported. Do you have ANY experience of living in a country with private healthcare?

"I don’t understand why people don’t use minor injuries or walk in more often" not everywhere has these services. Nearest area to me which does is 90mins away minimum and not my health organisations area. People can't use what isn't available to them. Our a&e is only open 4 days a week!

Anyone familiar with my views will know I'm no fan of new labour but they DID improve the Nhs in a number of ways - though some changes merely kicked the problems down the road.

Tories ALWAYS make massive cuts to Nhs funding as they never wanted the Nhs in the first place! They WANT the public to turn against it enough that they can justify bringing in an American style private healthcare system.

"To be a decent country to live in you need to have a well educated, well housed, healthy population, and the UK is failing in at least two of those ideals, however it could be a hell of a lot worse, I suppose, it could be like the USA." I would say all 3!

"The NHS needs to (a) start charging people for missed appointments;"

I and several others have pointed out that missed appointments are NOT always down to patients! Bit hard to attend an appointment I didn't KNOW About until a week after it happened. Other "missed appointments" can be down to the very health issues a patient is suffering from. I have mh conditions, the meds I'm on affect memory. I try to combat this with copious reminders on phone, post it notes etc but even that doesn't always work. Other patients may have dementia, anxiety disorders or physical conditions that on the day of appointment mess them up and it's not always (in fact it's very rarely so ime) possible to get through to the relevant dept then and there to tell them you've had X happen and will either be late or unable to attend.

"and (b) stop paying exorbitant prices for some prescription medications where the supplier has a monopoly." The government needs to step in and help with the later problem. Er...where you getting that from?! Because the govt DOES negotiate quite stringently to keep the costs of meds to a minimum as much as possible. Do you even understand how expensive it is to develop a drug? To do all the testing required to ensure its safety? I'm not saying it's perfect but certainly the Nhs has significant power in keeping costs of meds procurement down.

@ptw1234 - would you seriously trust the tories to implement a fair means testing policy? Or to manage one brought in by another party? I bloody wouldn't! Just look at how they treat other means tested entities! As a disabled, mentally ill single mum to a disabled dd - nope! Never!

Particularly problematic if one of the parts of the means testing relates to "sufferers of X y z conditions" because that means until they get the DX they won't get the exemption - can take DECADES to get the right DX for certain conditions - especially if you're a woman! And no I don't just mean gynae conditions but because women are NOT listened to as patients.

"Always have to askto change routine appointments....notes please make appointment either early as you can or late as you can to save me having to take a day off work." But all patients who work naturally want this - it's not possible to only give appointments at those times!

@sunshine11 as your family are lucky enough to enjoy pretty good health. Then I'm sorry but you cannot possibly understand how it is for those of us that don't. Chronically ill & disabled people who need to use the Nhs frequently can well be too ill to work - how are they supposed to pay for that frequent use when barely managing on minimal income from benefits?

And yes i know you said "all but the poorest of people" but again I absolutely would not trust the tories to assess this fairly.

"I wonder how many people going to A+E have had to go there because their illness or ailment has got worse either because
a. they cant get a GP appointment

b. they have had pressure from their employer not to have GP appointments during work time which obviously restricts their choices as other employees of other companies will have been told to do the same thing."

I'd add to that

c - because their GP/GP Surgery has repeatedly dismissed symptoms and refused to refer to a specialist for an ongoing condition and it's worsened to a point they go to a&e in desperation

d - because their GP/GP surgery is denying them a service they urgently need - I'm particularly thinking of the situation with mirena coil which should be a huge Fucking scandal!

I've had a couple of incidents with a&e visits where I have been "told off" for not going to GP or "GP should have done X y z" where once I've explained that actually we DID go to GP and THEY Told us to go to a&e and WOULDN'T do "X y z" to which the a&e person has then apologised and said they'll be taking the matter up with the GP AND we've then received apologies from the GP surgery for whatever they've done wrong at that time - and no there's no point changing surgery as from discussing with others locally and checking reviews all the local surgeries are as bad as each other on this type of thing - they've even been admonished for it by "on high" and nothing changes.

For genuine time wasters/piss takers yes I think they should be fined for abusing eg ambulance services, but I think what we'd find is that there aren't as many of these as people think.

"There's a national shortage of GPs. In any other industry that would tell you that the salary is not high enough to justify the long training period and pressures of the job." I and others completely disagree - instead I think they've been pandered to for far too long, they know they have govt and patients over a barrel. Worst decision ever was to not make them fully part of the Nhs and allow them to effectively be self employed contractors hired by the Nhs on long term contracts.

Even so, I remember until I would say around my late 20's - that would have been late 90's/early 00's - that GP's were (generally speaking) less likely to work part time, more likely to see the same patient consistently (unless the patient themselves moved out of area), less likely to retire early, better at listening, more willing to work outside standard hours, more willing to do house calls, more effective advocates for patients who were facing poor care from other parts of Nhs...

The quality of GP care has definitely gone seriously downhill - and not just due to underfunding.

"If you starve a service of funds, it will get worse. Amazing how many people seem unable to accept that simple proposition." Totally agree. Not just Nhs either - my brothers a police officer. Does his nut in that people seem unable to understand that fewer police = more crime! I've also a good few family/friends are teachers - they're stunned that people seem unable to accept that underfunding education = poorer education outcomes! like d'oh! What do people EXPECT to happen?!

Aforeffort9 - that sounds dreadful - but I actually remember when things were worse - which is where we are headed again, also under a tory govt, I remember during my training where conditions were so bad junior Drs were DYING! And I'm not even talking suicide, I'm talking heart attacks, kidney failure etc because of the working conditions. Some of the older hcps/former hcps may also remember this time.

I REALLY don't want us to end up there again, but I fear things will only improve if we do.

"and I personally can’t wait for the day (sooner I suspect than any of us think) when the NHS is no longer." If you really are a GP @moodlesmoodle then SHAME ON YOU For saying that. I'm not surprised but I am frequently disappointed in the attitude gp's have to patients.

"each department blaming the other isn’t going to get us anywhere" it certainly is if a particular area isn't pulling their weight! Which frankly in my experience and that of many others primary care isn't! One major part of Primary care's job is to treat illnesses/injuries when they are at the "minor" level so they DON'T GET WORSE. At this I truly believe they are failing.

"Thats utterly disgusting @Oliversmumsarmy about the same symptoms and cancer and I can really believe that happened. " I've a thread FULL of just such examples (which I think Oliversmumsarmy possibly posted on?) - based on that thread alone I have no doubt that there are quite possibly 10,000's gall bladder disease patients who ended up needing surgery or developing pancreatitis PURELY because GP's don't listen to women patients - not ONE poster claiming to be a current hcp ever posted on that thread to my knowledge. I've asked posters claiming to be hcps on numerous threads how much extra my own medical history cost the Nhs in surgeries and other treatments BECAUSE of GP's not listening and it taking far longer than necessary to get a DX - NOT ONCE had a reply to this.

Oliversmumsarmy - just to be clear I understand GP's not listening to patients is not limited to women, but it's certainly even more likely where patient is a woman.

"On the other hand, my friend's cancer op last month was put off until August because her consultant only works once a month." I for one would love to know how much that consultant is being paid for how many hours. Is it possible he works more due to performing surgery? (Grasping at straws I suspect)

I have not read the full thread but have my expat view to offer.

I live in the Middle East. I am British. I paid my taxes. I AM NOT entitled to nhs treatment other than emergency.

I needed the morning after pill last summer when I was visiting. I went to a pharmacy in a supermarket and requested such pill. I paid. I then spent 10 minutes arguing with the pharmacist as he thought I should call a local GP and get it for free. I could not have been clearer. I am not entitled to the NHS. I want to pay.

I also know a woman that was an expat giving birth in the UK. She handed over her insurance card; asked for an invoice then was told it was all sorted. 16 months later she was sent an invoice for £28,000. Her insurance was no longer valid, she did not have that kind of money and the NHS were against their own charter. If they had invoiced at the time they would have received the £28,000 from insurance.

Whilst visiting the UK my daughter had breathing difficulties. I took her to the walk in but was put on the A&E queue. I filled out the expat forms with insurance details.
We were seen, meds etc. Done.
3 months later I received a letter to my home address asking me to prove she was entitled to NHS treatment. I phoned and said she wasn’t and I would pay. They said they can’t charge for a&e unless admitted etc. Wtf waste a stamp sending me the letter???

Charge those that can be charged and save millions!

admin staff calling patients wankers and moaning about pens....they want to try and be the actual medical/nursing staff to really see what its like!

OP is pretty knowledgeable about A&E so I’m not entirely sure where you get the idea she’s admin staff @Lemonlady22. And wankers is a pretty accurate description of some of the time wasters who pitch up at A&E.

The paucity of stationery was used as a way of illustrating just bad things are - if you can’t get a £7 order signed off, there’s not a lot of hope for anything else.

Has anyone seen the massive shortfall in applicants??!

All the Uni open days we've just been to are saying the medical school courses are grossly over-subscribed and are very highly competitive to get a sniff of a place. Is this "massive shortfall" a regional thing?

Agree with you in theory! But there is so much wastage in the NHS. Why are they printing stuff? Why are they paying more than retail for light bulbs and branded cereal etc when they could negotiate amazing discounts. Why are most consultants and GPs allowed to work 1-2 days per week to retain their pension whilst working privately in cosmetic roles? The NHS should be amazing but pen pushers have screwed slot of it.

It needs urgent cash.
People need to leave with a estimate of what their care would have cost privately to instill the value.
Nurses need more pay.
Need less pen pushers, trustees.
Agency staff rates need reducing
Doctors and consultants need larger pension penalties for working less than full time.

I love the NHS! Hope it survives.

But there is so much wastage in the NHS

And the staff don't care because on the long ingrained attitude of "what's a fiver when the NHS needs billions"

As said above, there's no respect at all for the cost of anything at the front line. My OH went through chemo last year and now has monthly infusions. Several times, the "bag" has just been dumped unused because it was the wrong quantity or had been left out too long before use. The nurses glibly say these bags can cost thousands each but it doesn't seem to bother them that they've just put one in the bin because of some inefficiency somewhere along the line.

On a much smaller scale, last time I had an ECG done, the nurse opened a small bag of "stickies" which stick to your skin for the wires to be attached. I think there were 8 in the bag, but there were only 5 wires, so she glibly threw the unused 3 in the bin which I thought was a waste even then. But then, one of the stickies hadn't stuck, so she disconnected, threw it away and then glibly opened another pack of 8, used one and threw the other 7 in the bin. Then she said it's common that they don't all stick properly. Well, isn't it common sense to keep hold of the unused ones just in case she needs another, rather than binning them prematurely and then opening a new pack. Yes, that pack may have only cost a few pounds, but how many nurses are doing that every day in every GP surgery and hospital?