Is this autism?

[Thenthatsthatthen]

Posting on behalf of DSis. All of us are at a loss as what to do with her DC (11) and she’s asked me to post and see if anyone else can advise.
-DC regularly has tantrums and these often become violent with spitting, hitting etc.
-DC often talks about killing themselves or others, especially when angry. Even something small can trigger a ‘i’ll stab you’ comment.
-Has been expelled from school this year due to attacking a teacher.
-Has to argue everything. Will not accept that they could be wrong. Ever.

-School has said they’re behind mainly due to the fact they won’t stay in class. DC runs out of classrooms, climbs trees and won’t come down or tries to escape the school grounds most days.
-DC struggles to keep friends-often accuses them of bullying if they won’t play the exact way DC wants e.g they want to play tag but DC doesn’t so accuses them of bullying. Other kids seem weary of DC.
-DC has 1 to 1 support at school but it doesn’t seem to help.

Can anyone advise? GP isn’t much help just keeps saying school need to deal with it and maybe they can refer DC for counselling but 4 month wait. school don’t know what to do with DC anymore and there on the verge of being expelled again from this new school. CAHMS referal has been made but can anyone suggest anything in the mean time?

It's impossible to say over the internet but it doesn't sound anything like the children with autism that I know, but of course they are all different. Has anyone at the school suggested this as a possibility?

DD1 is currently studying such things so I just showed her your thread and she wonders if you have looked at the symptoms of oppositional defiant disorder?

Interesting I was also thinking ODD.

Where are based OP as that will change what routes of assessment and support are available to you. Does the child have an EHCP? Have they always struggled or has it got worse in recent years?

It could be Autism, but it could be something else.

How long is your wait for CAMHs? If the child is talking about killing themselves then really they should be seen asap

@trouble yes school have said they think it’s autism and that’s what they’ve referred DC to CAHMS for I believe. I have a DD with ADHD and though some symptoms seem similar but I’m not sure.

I'd say you are telling us about the symptoms rather than the underlying cause. What is it that causes the rages, what triggers the running away, what stresses the child to lead to this- that is more telling than the behaviours.

My first thought was PDA(pathological demand avoidance), which may be an old name for ODD.

Have a look at pda too - check out the Facebook groups for your area to see if your health Trust recognises it - it's a bit of a lottery

Not in any way qualified to diagnose, but work extensively with children on the spectrum and I too feel that this is ODD.

DC says they’re bored in school and has a short attention span so I imagine teachers struggle to keep them focused. As far as I’m aware Tantrums/running away are usually caused by saying no. Certainly when I’ve told them no I’ve been hit with a barrage of abuse. They attacked a teacher as the teacher asked them to stop tapping their pen against the desk as it was distracting. DC refused. Teacher eventually tried to take the pen l away from DC and was attacked (hit, spat at, kicked etc so a full on attack).

Sounds nothing like asd more adhd with odd - I would get a referral

Sounds exactly like my DS at 7yo. He was DX with ADHD, and has been also now dx ASD as an adult.

Sounds strikingly similar to my eldest who has PDA.

Have a look at the PDA society website - sorry am useless at clicky links.

Of course autism is a wide spectrum so I can only go by the children with autism in my child’s special school. None of the children in the school show the behaviour that you have listed, they are all fairly low functioning.
Some mainstream schools seems to use the word autism to explain everything. When they have absolutely no idea.

also look into anxiety (lots of kids with asd / pda have anxiety too but it can be just on its own. My son does have asd and he got so anxious his fight/flight response was constantly triggered - he spent quite a bit of time up a tree when he was last in school.

My DC are autistic, with a diagnosis, and DC2 has a significant level of need. He has very similar behaviours and triggers to the child you describe, and as a result is now not allowed to return to the autism hub school he was moved to earlier this year. We are in the process of looking at specialist provision.

Some people have mentioned ODD and PDA. I don't know much about either of those, except they come under the autism 'umbrella' and may or may not be diagnosed separately depending on what the referring practitioner opines.

I also know that fight/flight response to a high level of demand + need for control over surroundings and others is not uncommon in demand avoidant autistic people.

A pp has said they haven't heard of another autistic person with those behaviours, but professionals in the field that I've spoken to definitely have, because they've told me as much. I've also seen very similar behaviours discussed among parents, professionals and autistic people on various social media groups I'm in. What I'm trying to say in my long winded way is: yes, it can definitely be 'a thing' with autism and other neurodiversities.

My DC were both referred via school, they said I could 'try' at the GP, but your average GP won't refer a child for what they are likely to dismiss as just 'being naughty'. (Although there will be some GPs with up to date awareness and training.)

I would try to pursue a referral from school. Good luck.

ODD and PDA present in quite a similar way, but with very different underlying causes for the behaviour, and with VERY different approaches to dealing with it.
ODD needs a very consistent application of 'discipline', e.g. consequences etc.
PDA needs exactly the opposite - game playing, distraction etc to take the emphasis off the request.
Far more complex than that, but please google both!

PDA was my first thought.

My son is autistic and I work in a school for autistic children and none of them display your listed concerns... now! Some of them have started that way but over the years, with intervention and the right school environment, they have totally calmed down and you can't even imagine they started school on such a difficult note.
But yes, definitely read about ODD and PDA, as well as ADHD. ADHD tends to be a tagalong friend to a main disorder, like ASD. So ADHD may be part of the problem but not the sum total.

The worry here is the age. The earlier the intervention, the better, of course. That's not to say further support won't help. When I read your post, the first thing that hit me was 'stress'. This child is stressed and in the wrong environment. It's not working. So how can you make it work? If your sis's DC were mine, I'd be moving heaven and earth to get a statement and checking out local SEN schools in your region. This DC needs to be working with people who are trained to understand his/her needs. It may not always be perfect, but at least the DC has a chance of being in a more accommodating, less stressful environment. With any SEN, stress really needs to be removed/reduced as much as is possible.
It must be terribly draining for your DSIS and all of you, OP.

I was going to suggest PDA as well as the previous posters. Its part of the autistic spectrum. Sounds just like a boy in my school.