I'm in a church...

[LifeIsGoodish]

How do I know what sort of church it is?

I think it's a Catholic church - but I'm not a Christian. My friend thinks it is an Anglican church - but then she's not a Christian, either.

So how do we tell?

(Either way, it's a lovely space.)

You're in an Anglican church. Sounds like it's what's called 'high anglican' or 'anglo-catholic' (anglo- as opposed to roman-).

You'll see many of the same things as in a Roman Catholic church - crucifixes, sanctuary lamp, lots of Mary, stations of the cross, occasionally confessionals.

Many Anglicans do not consider themselves Protestant. Protestant churches came from the protest of Luther, Calvin etc against the abuses of the Catholic church (and even Luther was hoping for reform rather than starting a whole new outfit). The Anglican church comes from Henry VIII's break with Rome, and saw itself as very much still being part of the Catholic church, but with Henry having authority rather than the pope. Henry would have considers himself a Catholic.

It doesn't help that all this was going on in roughly the same period (and there was of course influence in theological thought in both dirextions.) So people often think of the birth of Anglicanism has having been part of the Reformation even though it was a slightly different thing.

My dad is a Vicar of the Church if England and gets offended if you call him a Protestant. He is high church, which is what others have called high Anglican. They still use the bells and smells like Roman Catholics. There are stations of the cross, a cross above the alter and a lady chapel (for Mary) he doesn't take confession and has a different ending to the Lord's Prayer to the RC church.

Look at the sign outside. It'll say what it is.

And it'll say whether there is a vicar (CofE) or priest (RC) in charge.

The other stuff (apart from Stations of the Cross) isn't enough to decide - the church I had to go to as a child was CofE, but had a giant golden crucifix with Jesus on it and a Lady Chapel. It was still very different from the Anglo Catholic churches near to where I live (and the vicar sang the Nicene Creed/used Latin occasionally).

Another way of assessing it is noticing the end of the Lord's Prayer or Our Father - if it ends 'and thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, For ever and ever, Amen', it's Anglican. If it ends without saying that, RC. And people crossing themselves is also a RC thing.

Actually - were you listening to a choral performance?

Faure?

If so, Anglican.

Saint Paul's is rooted in the ^Catholic^ tradition of the Church of England

Then you are definitely in a CofE aka Anglican church. One on the high end of things. My sort of church!

I think those churches are High English or High Anglian churches.

And it'll say whether there is a vicar (CofE) or priest (RC) in charge

CofE parishes sometimes have a 'priest in charge' so that's not a reliable way to decide either!

Genuflecting!

Is that for Catholics only or do the the High Anglicans and Anglo Catholics indulge in that too?

Genuflecting!

Is that for Catholics only or do the the High Anglicans and Anglo Catholics indulge in that too?

Some do!

My dad is a Vicar of the Church if England and gets offended if you call him a Protestant.

but likewise if he was referred to as a Catholic he'd have to correct them too?

Chances are you’re in a CofE church belonging to the “high rite” of the Anglican communion, which in many respects is very similar to a Catholic Church. Keep in mind that until the 16th century every church in the country was Catholic. Then a whole host of them became CofE, but were still Catholic Churches (I was a little tickled to visit a church in the Preston area that was a CofE church but had the apostolic creed proclaiming a Catholic Church).

So for the high rite there is a lot of crossover- they believe in transubstantiation/the real presence (and so often have lights indicating that at a tabernacle), they believe in the veneration of the saints and Mary, and an ordained and male clergy. They will often have the stations of the cross etc as well.

A few sure fire signs it’s Catholic instead: there will be a picture of the Pope (not required but very common) and/or the local Bishop. Sometimes there will be the Catechism of the Catholic Church available from the book stand at the back. The majority of the books on the book stand will be from the CTS (Catholic Truth Society).

In truth, apart from a few fine points of theology the fundamental difference between high Anglican and Catholic is the primacy of the Pope rather than the Queen. For this reason there is an ordinariate for those high Anglican clergy who wish to convert to Catholicism.

MitziK - outed! How likely is that, of the gazillions of MNers and such a small concert? Were you there, too?

FreezerBird - that's really interesting. Why aren't we taught this stuff at school? Surely it's really relevant to our history? I certainly conflated Henry VIII actions with what I later read about Luther's Protestantism. Not helped by being taught that Elizabeth was Protestant, Mary was Catholic, etc.

An Anglican church can have many of the same features of a Catholic church. I used to attend High Anglican mass and the church had a crucifix with Jesus on, stations of the cross, side chapel, thuribles and the vicar was referred to as a priest by some of the congregation. The word catholic is used in the liturgy but that doesn't make it Roman. In my experience Roman Catholic churches are often modern, but obviously there are exceptions.

@hiddenmnetter, are you sure it was 'Catholic' in the creed, not 'catholic'. They are different.

@LifeIsGoodish - I don't know how old you are and where you grew up (I'm in my 30s), but I think when we were little, there was still an awful lot of tacit ideology about 'Englishness' in the teaching of history. Catholicism gets positioned as an awful old superstition, with Bloody Mary the baddie (who married a Spanish man), and good old Henry and Elizabeth the proper English monarchs. Weirdly (given Protestantism didn't originate here), people go in for Protestant vs Catholic in a very stark way. Not a lot about Calvin or the Humanist traditions that predate Henry's Reformation.

Btw, I used to attend a high Anglican church that did the prayers to saints, incense, robes, etc., but our priest was very definitely female.

The word catholic with a small c means universal or inclusive. The wording on the sign and in the creed is saying this is for everyone.

I was a little tickled to visit a church in the Preston area that was a CofE church but had the apostolic creed proclaiming a Catholic Church).

The wording of the creed is “the holy, catholic and apostolic church” meaning all-inclusive. If there was a capital ‘C’ in the service booklet it was a typo!

@SarahAndQuack are you sure it was 'Catholic' in the creed, not 'catholic'. They are different.

Yes I’m aware of the Greek root of Catholic, but it was clearly an ex-Catholic church as it had been built in the 13th Century, but was now CofE. And yes, it was in the apostolic creed, but as it was painted onto what looked like original lime wash plaster on the walls, I presumed they daren’t touch it for fear of irreparably damaging it. I also presume that as the reformation never took root as strongly in the north, at the time the locals were less inclined to scrub out mention of the Catholic Church.

So while it was written in the sense of universal, it was also written when there was only one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. And yes, it used a capital C, but as I say on the walls rather than in a booklet.

Oh, I see! That's rather lovely, I like that. And it was in English?! Do you mind letting me know where this was? I'd love to know. It's rare to see the creed in English pre-Reformation.

(I think most damage to church furniture/decoration wasn't done immediately post-Ref - though some was - but during Oliver Cromwell's time. There's a fab diary of a zealot who went around churches having 'superstitious icons' pulled down, and he records things like 'there were six angels on the roof, which I broke'. I don't think he'd have minded creed with a capital C, though.)

To be honest I have no idea where- my dad did some family history and knew that an ancestor was buried there (thus the original visit) but this was 10 years ago or so. I was living in Australia at the time and just remembered that it was near where he grew up around Preston.

Oh, pity! I'm really interested as it sounds like an unusual survival if it really was pre-Reformation.

I’d ask. Sometimes it’s he’s to tell. I was taken to a ‘high church’ as a child and I feel more ‘at home’ in a catholic (we didn’t have confessionals though).

I worked for the cofe for a bit and there is definitely a wide range of variety when it comes to decoration and smells. The one attached to my office did have a heavy incense smell but that was to mask the smell of dead rats under the floorboards!

As far as I'm aware concerts are not permitted in Catholic churches unless the music is of a religious/sacred nature.

Also @Peitho, Catholics believe in the true presence of Christ, so it is not communion wafers that are reserved in the tabernacle but the true presence of Christ. That is why a red candle is lit and why Catholics genuflect towards the tabernacle when entering or exiting a pew.

This sounds like St Paul's Wokingham if there are any locals around?

The Catholic and catholic thing reminds me of one of my mother's many expressions of stupidity and prejudice.

She'd proclaim to all and sundry that she was High Church, don't you know and then refuse to say the creed because she hated Catholics (amongst others) and insisted she wasn't a Catholic/it shouldn't be allowed to say such words in Church.

I was never brave enough to point out to her that she was attending a specifically Anglo Catholic church and had been for many years, and a lower church wasn't a church in her eyes.