How do you produce vegan organic veg?

[Runmoreorless]

I know, sounds ridiculous but I will explain.

Not, I hope a TAAT but certainly inspired by one.

What is the vegan stance on animal manure? I don't pretend to understand the ethics. I can see the value in a more plant based diet but mostly for environmental reasons. For that reason, I'd prefer my veg to be organic.

I am aware that most organic farmers will use animal manure as fertiliser. That manure presumably comes from the meat and dairy industry. An alternative for domestic gardeners (not sure if it's used commercially) is blood fish and bone.

As a gardener, I am unaware of any organic fertiliser that isn't based on animal product (compost is a soil conditioner, it doesn't feed plants much) but perhaps people here know of an alternative?

If we all switch to a plant based diet to the extent that farming of animals is vastly reduced what do we feed the plants on? Is it OK for vegans to eat food that is dependant on the meat and dairy industry, provided they don't eat the actual produce?

Do real vegans eat organically produced vegetables, whose production is dependant on a by product of the meat and dairy industries?

I've really tried not to be inflammatory but I realise it's there if you're looking for it. It is a genuinely interesting question (at least to me) though. I am fascinated by the way solving one moral or environmental dilemma always seems to lead to another but this hadn't occurred to me until today.

Is it something committed vegans are already onto?

It's a really good point. I'm curious too.
What about crops pollinated by commercial bees, are they disallowed too?

All plants have been fucked by bees, so if you take veganism to the (il)logical conclusion, then vegans can't eat anything.

I remember reading this article a few months ago, might be of interest
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jan/12/were-humus-sapiens-the-farmers-who-shun-animal-manure

Considered thread here about the bee slaves...

Hmm, I was going to say I don't think the bees are being exploited. I'd momentarily forgotten that our food protection methods have led to a situation where commercial bees are necessary. Although not as much in Europe as in US I think?

Although don’t get too wound up about it, could be a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It's a really sensible question, OP. There are vegan organic growers and even Stockfree Organic standards (inspected by the Soil Association ). Fertility comes mainly from using green manures, though Tolhurst Organics who are one of the most well known vegan organic producers also do a lot with woodchip. They're near Reading, and can get plentiful woodchip for free from tree surgeons who would otherwise have to pay to dispose of it, though they're also developing production on site.

Although I'm not vegan, for anyone growing on a small scale without livestock & wanting to develop closed cycle fertility, the problems are exactly the same. I'm growing on around 2 acres, right now I do use horse manure (because again I can get it brought to my site for free by someone who views it as a disposal problem) but don't want to be dependent on it. I use a lot of green manures including a 3 year fertility break with a lift & fix mixture plus undersowing crops with clover/trefoil mix where-ever possible. Longer term I'm intending to supplement with chipped brash from 4 acres of coppice woodland that I also manage.

All sounds great - BUT there is fossil fuel use involved, the green manure needs mowing regularly to promote best results, chipper & tractor use for the woodchip etc.

I can't say exactly but my strong feeling is that a more traditional organic rotation with say sheep on the green manure break would (a) be more productive of food and (b) avoid much of the fossil fuel use. (It's just not feasible for me because I don't have enough land, nor do I want to keep livestock, even the traditional small scale answer of poultry as I don't live on site)

What I don't know is whether there is anyone doing stock free arable on a larger scale right now. Again I imagine it would be possible with long green manure breaks, but suspect the fossil fuel use would be substantial.

Though of course much less than for non-organic stockless arable farming (stockless being the norm in UK arable these days) where fertility comes from highly energy intensive fertilisers.

Thanks 4 the info, Sadik.

seaweed based liquid fertiliser is widely available

if you plant comfrey you can also make your own comfry tea from the leaves, its quite simple - steep them in a bucket for about 6 weeks

Some land is only fit for pasture as well, you couldnt grow crops on it.
There's ethical questions about whether the land could be better used - better in what way? More calorie production per square foot? Carbon capture per square foot?

Free range pasture fed meat, inc manure production on otherwise marginal land seems ok to me, but there's lots I don't know.

The official vegan society says that it's about excluding animal products as far as is possible and practical - and in this situation, unless you grow your own using non animal manure, which obviously most people are not in a position to do for all their veg, then you just have to live with it. It's about reducing suffering as much as you can.

Plus, the vast majority (I think about 3/4 but don't quote me) of crops are grown to feed animals who are then eaten, so even if animal manure is used or insects are accidentally killed, if everyone went vegan then less land/crops would be needed, meaning less animal manure and less insects accidentally dying. Same issue for bees - the more people who go vegan, the less land and fewer animals used

It's all very interesting.

Moscov, that makes sense but if the diary and meat industries were eliminated or vastly reduced , which presumably the vegan society (and environmentalists?) would see as a good thing, there'd be no "acceptable" byproduct to feed any crops.

Seaweed works but I don't think it's available in commercial quantities and if it was farmed/harvested to that extent, no doubt there'd be environmental consequences.

there are vegan farms around that don't use animal manure as fertilisers.
they tend to use green manure (legume plants thar enrich the soil with nitrogen) and comfrey/nettle juice and algea mulch.

it might get problematic if your soil is deficient of certain nutrients.

I wonder if you could use a combination of crop rotation, mulching and fertilisers like comfrey tea? Though it would be impossible on a large scale I would imagine.

Another approach I imagine would work on a larger scale would be alley cropped agroforestry systems like those at Wakelyns in Suffolk. (Wakelyns does/did include poultry - but I would think it would work as a stockfree system)

Really there are two potential scenarios I guess for long term sustainable agriculture.

The vegan vision would be arable farming on land where it is possible, with a combination of trees for biomass and re-wilding elsewhere. A lot of land currently used for livestock is actually quite feasible as arable in the right scenarios (the divide between arable in the East of the country / livestock in the West is recent and within living memory a far wider range of crops were grown in the livestock dominated areas). Fertility would come from cut and mulched green manures, compost, alley cropping with woodchip etc.

The regenerative agriculture / agroecology vision on the whole I'd say would tend more to a mixed agricultural system integrating pasture fed livestock as part of an organic system in rotations, eating food waste etc.

I think what is agreed by all is that even in the latter vision there would be vastly less meat / dairy available - so actually the more vegans there are the easier it would be to achieve.

Unfortunately unless we are careful I think what we are quite likely to end up with is super-intensive chemical farming producing arable crops, industrially produced meat substitutes, and big chunks of the UK uplands seen as 'uneconomic' & hived off into re-wilding and biomass destroying farming communities in the process.

If we did all go vegan, wouldn't that be the end of most species currently farmed? I suppose a few would end up in zoos. There might perhaps be a few herds of wild sheep in remote uplands. The landscape would be very different too. No sheep cropping the grass on the fells and moors, except for aforesaid wild sheep, last survivors of the pastoral age. The end of cats and dogs too once the last rescue animals had died off. I learned from that other thread that the Vegan Society would like to see the end of guide dogs and other assistance animals as well as pets. They want humans to be given those jobs. Hmm.

Would sheep become like Indian cows? Half-starved wandering the streets?

Local vegan sanctuary castrates all the male livestock they keep in their refuge. But how can castration be vegan-compatible? It's imposing human value systems on the creatures, after all.

Without the economic viability of keeping bees, would all the bee slave owners be out of jobs & would no one else bother to protect their hives?

ps: pic is NOT Mine. It's from link above.

Nettle tea.