Can I ask advice from anyone who has a toxic parent or IL?

[HepburnKNotA]

It's my MIL.

I don't really know how to describe her except perhaps in the words of my DH's (excellent) therapist, whom he has started to see to help him offload some of his stress regarding his mum. Therapist has said she's narcissistic, possibly also with a personality disorder.

She wasn't always this way, but she's certainly been this way for roughly 17 of the 25-odd years I've known her.

She nurses perceived grievances that bear LITERALLY NO RELATION to reality and then on a semi-regular basis (say, once every 2 months) she will suddenly go nuclear about the terrible things everyone has done to her. She screams, rants down the phone, punches iPads if her sons are FaceTiming her, accuses them of 'taking other people's side'. She does this with friends as well as her sons, she's lost most of her oldest friends over the last 10 years.

She is divorced (her decision), unhappily, from FIL.

Her latest eruption is a familiar theme. It's about my family (my parents specifically) and how 'appallingly' they've behaved towards her over the years. Mostly this is centred, right now, on a speech my FIL (NOT my dad!!!) gave at our wedding FIFTEEN YEARS AGO, in which according to MIL he didn't mention her enough.

This is all my parents' doing, apparently, they have 'hurt her' for years, they have made her a 'paraiah', they have shut her out of countless events that everyone else in her family has been invited to...

These events DO NOT EXIST. She has been excluded FROM NOTHING. My parents don't know her well (mostly because they were so thrown and bewildered by her own behaviour at our wedding, which she openly wept throughout and in the run-up to which she screamed at my DH that he was a 'lying piece of shit' because he'd invited a guest she didn't want invited...) but they have never 'hurt' her, they just don't have a relationship with her. NO animosity from their side, just confusion.

This is all entirely in her own head. She screamed the place down a week ago, suddenly, over all this, and now has called DH to tell him she's been crying for a week because he 'doesn't care' how hurt she's been.

It's fucking relentless. :(

Anyway, my question, really, is this.

We are due to do an activity with her this coming weekend, with our DD (her only grandchild).

DD has been looking forward to it, she's only 6 so despite the fact MIL has been screaming at DH, punching his face on the iPad (!) and saying he's 'chosen' my parents over her, we're not going to cancel the event.

I literally cannot face going and having to be pleasant to her. She's been saying some vile, made-up things to DH and my BIL about my parents and I'm not going to go and be all nice with her. I'm a people-pleaser and even I can't do this right now.

DH (who before you ask) has been spot-on in his response, he has pushed back calmly and incredibly firmly on all her bizarre claims, has defended my family from every accusation, has set boundaries in terms of not responding to her repeated attempts to re-start the same fight. His view is he will take DD to the activity and then leave her and his mum to it rather than engage with her pleasantly while she has been behaving so badly; he has no problem with me not going.

Can I ask those of you with toxic parents/ILs - is this the right sort of response?

A friend has said she thinks we should cancel the whole thing.

And a further question - before all this blew up we had booked to take MIL away for a few days in July.

Right now I literally cannot face having to go and be pleasant to her. I'm not automatically defensive of my family, they're not perfect people, but the realisation that my MIL has been hanging onto theses bizarre and untrue fantasies about how badly they've treated her for the last 15-odd years has really really upset and angered me.

Cancelling the trip (for which incidentally she hasn't yet thanked us for thinking of, booking, and paying for) will be A Big Deal.

DH isn't sure what to do. He's not keen on going ahead at the moment.

Again, though, DD is looking forward to it.

Any advice on what to do?

Sorry this was long. I've left out approx 1000000 examples of her histrionics because I've tried to keep it as short as possible (!) When DH pushes back on all these accusations she will say, 'well, my FEELINGS are that X and Y and Z happened' so in her view, she's right.

I'm feeling so furious and defeated by all the toxicity and don't really see a way back from the things she's said recently. :( Don't know what to do.

It would be totally fine (and indeed better) to cancel. A six year old will be easily satisfied with something else. And if she isn't easily satisfied, that will pass quickly.

MIL is not a very safe person to leave a child with, IMHO.

Can't believe you are thinking of going ahead with the weekend/leaving your DD with her.

I have situations periodically where DM is convinced that my in-laws are 'whispering' things to my DD/me that she isn't supposed to hear, and that some spectacularly tactless or misinterpreted comments are simply further proof that they turned against her years ago and are trying to do the same to us.

I don't think there is much we can say to try to say this isn't the intention, it's so ingrained in her mind. She gets incredibly upset if I attempt this and kind of blocks me/discussion by zooming off on tangents. She also has argued with good friends over weird things (friend spending 'too much' time with another friend - seems more like a 12 year old case of massive jealousy)

A massive row blew up about a year ago (not like me to really lose control that way) which I am not proud of and which also hurt me for a while, but I was pushed so far. Things are ok now although not like they were, which I think I am ok with.

I just wouldn't do the weekend unless you get chance to at least initiate some discussion that involves some respect for you and your DH and child first. Punching IPads?! I would not overlook that from anybody it's threatening. You need to listen to her but make her understand that this hurts you (all) and can't support any trust of her.

I wouldn't leave a six year old with your mil. I know where you are coming from, as I wouldn't want to leave my 23 year old with my mil, and he understands perfectly why we are NC, and agrees with us.

We communicate via solicitors when necessary, and only when necessary, and haven't spoken to her in any depth since 2012/13. We were unavoidably at an event with her in 2014, and tried to avoid her and only speak in passing. Having thought she was great for almost 25 years, even if irritating, self absorbed and self important; the scales fell from my eyes with a resounding clang, and I do not miss her. Sadly, neither do her sons and gc, whom she also alienated.

NC is a relief once you realise that you do not have to put up with the batshitness; distortion of the truth and whatever planet her reality happens to be on this week.

Thanks so much for your replies!
Ramona Quimby (I loved those books!!!) are you advising no to the trip, the event this weekend or both?

Sorry to hear you’ve suffered similar Ormally. That sounds shit.

One of the most damaging things about MIL in my opinion is that she will be ‘normal’ and ‘jolly’ for weeks at a time which (counterintuitively) makes it quite difficult to deal with the outbursts if that makes sense? I think DH and BIL and me and BIL’s partner are ‘fooled’ into thinking there’s a relationship there worth preserving?

Whereas the cold reality is she’s toxic, manipulative and utterly draining.

It’s honestly no coincidence that her lifelong friends have deserted her :(

Ok so we will re evaluate both events I think. It’s not a small thing to cancel the holiday but I’m not sure what else we can do. I literally can’t be in a room with her at the moment.

Thank you scaryteacher.

Your post really cheered me up tonight.

I don’t know if we can go NC :( It’s up to DH at the end of the day. She lives alone, has various ‘health problems’ (none of which are quantifiable mind you). I know he struggles to reconcile the (genuinely) fabulous mother who brought him up with the toxic monster she is now. I once said to him that she’s actually been ‘difficult’ now for a larger proportion of his life than she’s been ‘normal’ and he was pole axed by the realisation. Therapy is helping him but he can’t quite get to grips with the reality that his lovely mum has been frankly a toxic drain for almost 20 years of his life now.

Draining - yes, I hear you. I really do think it's too soon to try to plaster over this at the weekend as if you manage to or have to, then it looks as if it was a smaller thing to you than it sounds to be.
I think letting yourselves off this one and feeling that it's best for you is the way to go.
When I was typing my entry above, it really brought home how weird it is to describe it. There are some major traumas that have made DM very anxious at the bottom of this, going back quite a way (but not to do with my in-laws I should add), so I still feel quite guilty, but she wants no help other than me and won't 'own' anything of it, and I really feel that more professional and detached help is the only thing I can suggest, which is met with icy rebuttals.
Good luck. Protecting yourself for now should keep it from spiralling.

If your MiL were to have an emotional outburst, screaming and punching objects whilst the sole carer for your 6 year old, how would your daughter cope? What would be the impact on her? I think it's actually a potential safeguarding issue. And I appreciate you don't want to be around her because of how her past behaviour has made you feel but it's not a mild irritation you're talking about where you're quite happy to duck out and go to the shops whilst DH and DD hang out with the in laws. Neither you nor your DH want to be anywhere near her. That's quite telling.
If you forget offending your MiL for a minute and focus purely on DD well-being, I would personally either cancelling the activities or doing them without your MiL if that is an option? Just based on what you've shared.

Ormally, I almost feel my MIL is the same person as your DM... !!

There are MAJOR traumas in her childhood too, things DH knows about by accident and would rather not know :(

It’s very weird and hard to describe her behaviour. It’s been going on for so long that even though we KNOW it’s far from normal we often have to remind ourselves: hang on, screaming and swearing over imagined slights is nowhere NEAR normal.

She also won’t ‘own’ anything.

She refuses all suggestions of professional help.

It’s an impossible situation.

Sorry about your mum. I understand completely.

Really interesting. Like you can see it from various angles over time and just can't make sense out of it, but she absolutely cannot even come near considering that it might be different from her conviction. And my DM is still very strong in some ways so hard to reason with.

Hope that you have a breathing space this weekend and some nice weather too.

RubyBoots, excellent questions and points. Thank you so much for posting.

Interestingly (ironically? Disturbingly??) MIL has never exhibited even the slightest hint of rage/bitterness/histrionics while in DD’s presence.

I can totally accept that it sounds CRAZY to even think about leaving a 6 year old with a woman as I’ve described her.

Chillingly it’s more complicated than that if that makes sense? She’s never been anything other than cheery with DD. Not saying therefore it’s NOT a safeguarding issue. It’s obviously not beyond the realms of possibility that she might lose her shit while in charge of DD; anything is possible. It’s a vanishingly small possibility is all. Which IMO makes her histrionic behaviour worse somehow (?) as I feel she CAN control it?

You can go NC , it’s up to your husband what he does . I’ve been NC with my inlaws for over 20 yrs ( just MIL now as FIL died) , it was actually their decision after dh told them a few home truths . It’s been an absolute pleasure , dh still speaks to them and now FIL is dead sees MIL at least once a week . Our dc who are 19 and 26 also have nothing to do with her ( or him when he was alive) .

I understand op
I'm nc with my dad , it took many many years for this to happen so I understand it's not easy .
In the end life is easier but it will probably get worse before it gets better , in my experience my dad was like your mil so when I just went enough and went nc it didn't go well . He will never take responsibility for his actions in fact he's turned it all on me and my family, it's difficult but when you get to a point that you think I can't change anything but I can decide who I have in my life . I pity my dad and I feel sorry for my mum who I know is unhappy but won't admit it . There is no advise I can give but you are not alone . Just try and not let it affect your marriage and family.

I would cancel both if I were you, and you and DD can go NC.
If your DH needs more time to come out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) then so be it, but your MIL is not a safe person to have around your DD.

She is an abuser, and your DD does not need to witness her parents being abused, it can affect children very badly.

The "but we took you to stately homes" thread on here on the Relationships board is an excellent source of strength and support for those with toxic family, if you haven't already seen it it may be worth a read.

As others have said, six year olds are easily distracted with other things, the whole situation is awful for you all but it sounds like your DH is making g great progress

Thank you FloralNomad. Its actually a position I’ve been considering, me just not seeing her. I honestly could live with that!!

DD loves her granny :( as (in above post) Granny is always jolly with her. She has no idea Granny is a histrionic narcissist who screams and swears and sobs over imagined slights.

Doesn’t mean I couldn’t go NC myself, it does complicate it though.

I can’t tell you all how much I appreciate the very very kind and thoughtful replies, especially after my mammoth post!! Thank you all.

To add some context to my most, I was the granddaughter in what sounds like an identical situation to yours. My grandmother had major traumas (of a sexual nature) in childhood.

My parents used to let me visit my grandmother alone as I got older, (she was widowed by that point) she was always absolutely lovely to me, never a single hint of the way she was with my parents and I guess they didn't want me to miss out on having a relationship with her.

Until a few days after my tenth birthday. She seemed just the same but, and forgive me for being vague as I still find it extremely difficult to talk about, she tried to prostitute me to two "friends of the family" who turned up at her house, at her invitation. She told me it was a right of passage for growing girls. The two men were very enthusiastic about the idea. I gather it had been prearranged.

I ran away (I'm not even sure how they didnt catch me)/and hid under a hedge for hours and got hell from my parents after the village was out searching, but when I refused to see my grandmother again no comment was ever passed. Which in itself was pretty weird thinking back.

I'm not saying your MIL will do the same, but please do not trust her and treat this as the safeguarding issue it is.

@HepburnKNotA Please don't take this the wrong way but does your MIL have any mental health issues? She sounds very erratic in her behaviour. My own mother is the toxic one in my family and that's mainly down to her bipolar and not sticking to her meds. Our relationship broke down 2 years ago and during that time I didn't let my 2 sons have any contact purely because I couldn't trust her (I would hope that she would never hurt them physically or emotionally but I couldn't be 100% on that) and I didn't want to put them at risk of being exposed to their Gran in a way that would scare the hell out of them. Personally I would cancel the trip until she seems to be in a more stable frame of mind. Your daughter is only 6 and if she sees her Gran behaving like you have described it could do a lot of damage. I do hope things work out for you al. Xx

I also know that prostitute isn the right word at all when relating to children, but I struggle wording my own experiences so I hope it doesn't cause any offence.

My god, @EatenByDinosaurs, I am so sorry that happened to you. Wow, how traumatic. I am so glad you were able to get away

Thank you Ifeelinclined yes, I was very lucky that day.

Your MIL needs help. I had an Uncle who had very similar behaviours. His was what we would now call PTSD. He was extremely upset and traumatised by something that happened while he was a PoW.

Most of the time he was great fun but sometimes all the fear and anger of his memories got too much and he did what your MIL is doing and making up situations and scenarios so that he could transfer all the emotions away from the real events that caused them.

He always lived with his parents and then he was mostly OK but when they died and he was alone he couldn’t control the fear and anger.

It’s hard to explain but I hope you get the gist.

Good luck, OP. I wouldn’t leave your DD alone with her really, my Uncle always kept it together around me (I was only young) but he did tell my Dad I was stealing from him.

Dinosaurs, I’m so so sorry that happened to you that sounds horrific.

Emma, yes I think MIL does, by this point, have mental health issues. It’s hard as a non professional to say whether it’s ‘just’ depression (which I am certain she has, she is regularly very ‘down’ when she is not being angry) or whether it’s more than that.

For years DH and his brother have wondered about dementia as her personality is so very different than it was when they were younger. But who knows? It’s been almost 20 years now of this crap, as I sat. It’s a long long long time of a ‘different’ personality; half their lives.

She WILL NOT seek help 😔 nothing is wrong with her (apart from myriad unquantifiable physical health issues) according to her. It’s the entire rest of the world that is the problem.

We’re cancelling tomorrow’s activity and holding off making a decision about the holiday until the dust has settled.

Beyond that I don’t know what to do anymore. It’s probably uncharitable to say it but I’m just fucking sick of her and her outbursts 😔

Estuary thank you and for some reason your post really resonated with me. Like your uncle I suspect MIL is making up upsetting events because it’s easier to transfer her pain and anger away from the real traumatic events she experienced as a child (we are not certain and DH certainly does not want to seek confirmation of this but we think she was abused by her father 😔)

As she has spent more time alone (divorce a decade ago; friends falling by the wayside after her treatment of them; sons distancing themselves) I wonder if she has had more time to ruminate on these imagined events to take away the pain she really feels.

I feel bad for her but honestly I cannot like her very much after all this. She is unboundaried, manipulative, throws tantrums and lies.