Any police about?

[Bazzill]

I'm looking for some general advice. My dear old dad is suffering from advanced dementia, he has no mental capacity whatsoever. Unfortunately due to the illness he frequently attacks whoever is caring for him, he is looked after at home so it's family members who are bearing the brunt of the attacks.
We've been told that if we hire carers and he attacks them that they would be told to phone the police.

I'd like to know what the police would do under these circumstances? Also, if we logged the attacks on family members with the police, does that mean they would have to come out and actually investigate , or could they just give us a reference/ crime number?

Any help greatly appreciated.

They would be investigated to the point where it was proven that he had no mental capacity, then closed.

Ask them why their carers would be told to call police? I suspect it's nothing to do with recording an assault, and is actually because they won't provide enough members of staff to be able to handle him, and they will expect the police to come and restrain him/stabilise the situation. In which case you should avoid.

Have you spoken to Social Services to ask for help?

If the police are getting call outs from family members they will likely assess the situation and if they feel it's appropriate (and wanted) refer on to ss saying the family need assistance. Then hopefully a more robust support will be put in place to help the family.

If paid carers call he won't get into trouble due to incapacity but eventually it may be decided that he is not suitable for in home care and propose a care setting placement but That's more if the care agencies decide they aren't willing to go into the home anymore, although that's a long way down the line.

I'm not an expert though so don't take it as gospel.

Thanks, it's actually Social Services who told us that any carers would be told to phone the police. We tried two very experienced carers, the pair of them sat with dad for two hours and told me afterwards that they really struggled with him, they haven't been back since.

We requested funding help to pay for care (NHS CHC) but have been told that dad's needs are not great enough and he does not require any carers with specialist training. When I queried this, because of the attacks, I was told because I haven't logged them that there's no clear evidence

We wondered what the police could realistically do. I didn't know whether to start logging the attacks with the non-emergency number but I don't want them actually coming out to the house to restrain dad or arrest him or whatever.

I used to work in a home for elderly with mental health issues, early stages dementia etc but people were sometimes wrongly placed, or their condition deteriorated to a point where we couldn't deal with it appropriately. Unfortunately sometimes the only thing we could do was call the police, because ss and other agencies and managers/owners didn't listen when we said we weren't trained or equipped to deal with these situations. It was usually police intervention that got the person the care they needed and deserved, because they made the referral and were wanting resolution. It forced those who could do something about it to actually do it.
I would think the same would apply with home care, though I've never worked in that area.
Ultimately it protects the person as well, it's another voice to speak on their behalf. I once witnessed a frail resident go for a carer, for her face, the carer shielded her face with her forearm and the resident broke two fingers as they connected with the forearm. It wasn't anyone's fault, except the people who had ignored our reports that the environment wasn't suitable.
This is one of the reasons I got out of care, I got utterly fed up with people being dumped, their families being told things that weren't true and the resident being short changed by it all.

If he is proven to lack capacity nothing would happen however if this is happening his care is inadequate- he clearly needs more specialist residential care.

I have been to cases where a patient with dementia has seriously injured (and on one occasion killed) a fellow resident.

He needs reassessing. Carers are not obliged to put up with assaults as part of their workload and that will be why they've been told to report.

If the police case out and he was sectioned, then all of his care costs would be covered by the NHS. This may be why ss have told carers to contact the police.
It may be that he needs to be in a specialist home, and perhaps his meds need to be looked at?

Came out not case out!

It's like a Catch-22, the NHS assessor has said dad's needs are not great enough for them to fund any care, as a family we can't afford to pay for anything other than low-level care, SS are saying they would struggle to find someone to care for him (and he/we would need to contribute anyway). So up to now it has only been family caring for him, apart from the two carers for two hours on one occasion.

We thought we were doing the right thing by caring for dad as a family but actually we're being penalised. The NHS assessor said in a care home every single attack would have been logged, we haven't done that because we didn't know we had to! Dad has seen five different social workers in the last year, we're no further on.

I don't want to waste police time but if I thought it would help the situation then I would contact them. That's why I wondered if they would give me a reference number but not actually take any action against my dad. I don't want him arrested or sectioned, I'd rather just keep getting attacked myself.

Violence is sadly common with dementia and a side effect for the job for many who treat such patients. However, carers and HCP need to be safeguarded as much as possible and reading between the lines I suspect what SS are really saying is that at home carers are simply not suitable to meet his needs. Have you asked what the suggest? There are facilities in care homes for patients who have violent tendencies but spaces can be hard to find.

It's yet another case of the services that SHOULD be responsible dropping their shoulders and letting the police deal.

It happens all time and really really annoys me.

The police are stretched to the limit but are the only service that can't /don't say no. (Although helpfully we have an inspector who is the force lead on mental health and knows the law to the letter and has the balls to turn round to other services like social services and nhs and say Not our job over to you.

I feel for you op. But this is not a police matter. That said it sounds like it's going to become one because the agencies who are responsible for helping you are not doing their job.

SS have told us there is nowhere locally that would take him, that he would need a specialist dementia unit. But the NHS are saying he does not need specialist care, so no funding from them.
Caring for dad is the easy part, dealing with all the different agencies is what makes my head spin. How do we know who is telling the truth?

Have you tried somewhere like age concern or another charity maybe a dementia specific one? Dementia friends or dementia UK may be a good place to start.
I'm sorry you and your dad are facing this, I've never experienced it from a family pov, but I've seen plenty go through it. It's heartbreaking.

He would need a specialist unit without doubt and it will only get worse.

What they are hoping is that the police will step in .

I attended one gent who had been in Coldstream guards - fit and strong as an ox but suffered severely with dementia and it took 6 of us to restrain him. Ambulance came and he ended up in a secure mental hospital. It only happens after an emergency that people get suitably placed so they are saying report the assaults to care workers to ensure there is an audit trail ( it's a back covering exercise for when it finally goes tits up and he clobbers someone with his stick or frame I'm afraid. ). Then the blame game starts and they are compelled to find a suitable facility. It's all about costs .

You are in a difficult position. The police really are not the right agency here. The nhs and social services are but you will need to be a very squeaky wheel .

What tends to happen is police get called along with ambulance, police obviously won't prosecute but can support, make referrals etc if needed.

If he is being violent ultimately I think you'll end up having to call 999 / 101.

Police can put vulnerable adult forms in and my guess is that the more is reported the more evidence you have to show his needs are not being met.

But my argument is it should not be down to police - that however isn't you're fault op . 💐

My Nan went into a home at this stage. My Grandfather couldn't cope with the violence and was gutted to have to do it. Family supported him with his decision as they got equal brunt of her when they came to do their part of her daily care. She had dementia too.

@Bazzill I know you don't want him being sectioned, but then the NHS have to find a suitable place for him, and ss will have to help when he's discharged too. You will then not be liable for any of his care costs- and neither will he.

Independent age:
www.independentage.org were so helpful when we were in a similar situation with my grandmother. Give them a call.

You'll find that without proper advice you'll be pushed from pillar to post as no one wants to admit responsibility as then they will have to fund the care.

I don't have the answer to this but recommend you keep a diary of his needs and any incidents. Any conversation you have by phone needs a flow up email to the person concerned outlining what was discussed as you.need a paper trail.

So sorry you're going through this, can imagine things harder now than they were 5 years ago when we were going through it.

Key words that got us action were Carer Breakdown, Vulnerable Adults, Risk to self and Safeguarding issue.

I think ultimately what my question is, is who do I report the assaults to? We don't have any care workers attending to him so at least he's 'only' attacking us.
We have reported the main attacks to the social workers, they've also been there at times when he's assaulted us (and done and said nothing, just sat and watched). There's literally some sort of attack every day, even just light slapping or pushing about so logging it all would be a task in itself.

NHS assessor's view is that the violence is fairly predictable and to be expected, hence dad does not require carers with specialist training.

Because he's my dad and I know he can't help himself I don't mind him attacking me, but I don't see why a minimum wage care assistant should have to put up with it.

If the care workers are assaulted they have to report themselves, really as they are the victims. To police.

It a data collating exercise. A very unnecessary one . I second calling age or dementia charities for info on your rights .