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Watched Sense and Sensibility again last night. Please explain ....

42 replies

PuddleglumtheMarshWiggle · 23/02/2019 13:28

..why would anyone prefer Willoughby over Colonel Brandon?
And yes, I've read the book a dozen times and understand Marianne's romantic heart. But this is Alan Rickman!
The look in his eyes when he sees her would melt butter! And his voice is as smooth as honey.
The only thing that beats this is seeing Darcy five into the lake.
Pity Jane Austen never knew the great pleasure she brought to do many.

OP posts:
Loopytiles · 23/02/2019 13:30

Brandon was old and wet - Marianne shouldn’t have settled for him. Willoughby was young, sexy and charming, albeit a cad.

NotANotMan · 23/02/2019 13:33

In the book Marianne is 17 and Brandon 36. It's gross. He treats her like a child and she clings to him when her heart is broken.
Why should a 17 year old girl prefer a man old enough to be her father to a dashing young man?

Frangipane · 23/02/2019 13:34

I thought Brandon was meant to be about 35 and Marianne was only 16. Hardly ideal by any standards. Not sure how old Willoughby was, but he was clearly more appealing to a teenager. But yes, that scene where Brandon walks in as Marianne is singing, is there anything more perfect on film than that moment? Swoon.

BrexitIsComing · 23/02/2019 13:35

Willoughby is closer to Marianne's age. He is closer to her in temperament - impulsive & effusive. She sees Brandon as closer to her father's age, he is much more steady & guarded in his emotions - something she clearly doesn't value at first, as she criticises Eleanor for similar qualities.

PerspicaciaTick · 23/02/2019 13:35

Alan Rickman's Brandon wins hands down. In the book it is closer run, but I still prefer Brandon.

norbert23 · 23/02/2019 13:36

I've had an issue with this since I was 17 - totally agree! I guess being hurt and choosing a safe / stable marriage but it's hard to imagine choosing him! Maybe he's one who grows on you, I'm certainly a bit more sympathetic towards Brandon as a character now than I was at 17 (when I thought he was ancient!) but I still feel like she settled. Maybe you're supposed to feel like that? A bit like in P&P when lizzy's friend marries mr collins? I guess lots of women had to choose with their head as there was so little control over any other parts of their lives.

Quintella · 23/02/2019 13:37

Willoughby was fun and sexy.

Colonel Brandon doesn't do it for me. Obsessing over Marianne because he reminds her of that other girl who Lost Her Virtue and was then turned out of Good Society. I don't think Austen intends the Marianne/Brandon marriage as a happy ever after, more of a quelling of her wild and passionate spirit.

PatchworkElmer · 23/02/2019 13:39

Alan Rickman isn’t colonel Brandon though- the Brandon in the book is far less appealing.

Regardless, Marianne was very young. I think most teenage girls would go for the romantic option.

TemporaryPermanent · 23/02/2019 13:41

Jane Austen didn't write romances, she wrote satirical comedies full of hard choices. Elinor and Marianne are stuffed if they don't marry and almost equally stuffed if they choose partners badly. Austen's own family lost out hugely by a situation very like the start of S&S.

NotANotMan · 23/02/2019 13:43

Yep. It's not meant to be a great romance. The films all misrepresent that relationship, they keep casting sexy middle aged men rather than stuffed shirts which Brandon was. (Though a decent man)

JellySlice · 23/02/2019 13:46

Brandon doesn't 'do it' for me as fully grown adult, and certainly not as a headstrong, romantic teenager. Did he get Marianne on the rebound, or is Jane Austen giving us an alternative view of the lead-by-the-head Collins marriage?

In P&P she showed a young woman choosing to secure her livelihood by the only means available: marriage. A loveless, nauseating marriage, but security for herself and a future for her children.

In S&S she showed how the same choice could be made where love and affection could develop.

Pishogue · 23/02/2019 13:57

Brandon in the novel is only just younger than Marianne's mother (in fact, Mrs Dashwood would have been a more obviously suitable match for him in many ways), and depicted as wearing a flannel waistcoat and complaining of rheumatism. He's dull. So is Edward Ferrars, whom Elinor marries -- a stolid, decent young man without an original or passionate bone in his body.

The genius of the Ang Lee film is in the casting of Alan 'Sexy Older Man' Rickman, and depicting him as crossed in love and smouldering under his staid surface, and in casting Hugh 'Stammering Charmer' Grant as Edward, and reinventing the character as not so much dull as diffident, but also funny, kind and deep-feeling -- in fact, the classic stuttering Hugh Grant poshboy.

The film in fact completely reinvents the novel, where Austen's message is that while unromantic, pragmatic, buttoned-up Elinor is perfect as she is, silly, romantic wild-child Marianne is utterly wrong, must be punished (and almost killed) by the plot for her unguarded behaviour with Willoughby, and only gets the consolation prize of Colonel 'flannel waistcoat' Brandon. If you read the end of the novel, you'll see that even Austen can't be bothered making it sound as if Marianne ever feels for him the way she did for Willoughby -- she's a sadder and wiser girl, and her transfer of affections from Willoughby to Brandon is perfunctorily described.

If the screenplay and casting hadn't flipped that (to make it seem that Elinor is at fault for being too staid too, rather than being utterly correct in her behaviour throughout, and to make us sympathise with Marianne's teenage romanticism, and to give them both appealing matches), it would never have been such a big hit with 1990s audiences. 'Be sensible and guarded, or you'll almost die and end up married to a dull father figure' isn't exactly what modern audiences tend to want in romantic films!

DonaldTwain · 23/02/2019 14:02

Alan rickman’s Brandon is a brooding tortured Byronic hero. Brandon in the book is a dull old man. They took liberties when they made the film but I’m glad because it works. It’s one of my favourite Austen adaptations. They are all just wonderful in it.

BrexitIsComing · 23/02/2019 14:05

Yes, the point is that it's social satire / commentary, dressed up as romantic fiction. You get the feeling that Jane Austen really didn't think much of quite a lot of the people she knew. And of the rest, she knew enough not to expect much of them, for fear of disappointment.

BartonHollow · 23/02/2019 14:08

The best bit of Brandon for me is the first time he sees Marianne exquisite face only acting from Alan Rickman

Knowivedonewrong · 23/02/2019 14:38

I've not read the book, but Alan Rickman is so handsome as Brandon.

AltogetherAndrews · 23/02/2019 16:29

I think you are all being a little harsh on poor Brandon. Marrianne talks about her ideal man, and on the surface Willoughby is an exact match, but it’s all surface, he’s a selfish immoral dick. Brandon appears stuffy and old, but is actually what she talks about wanting, the true romantic, it’s just Jane Austen is a realist enough to know that love isn’t all big gestures and show, it’s pain and loss too, and it leaves its mark.
My concern is once they are married, what happens about his ward? Is Marrianne going to play happy families with Willoughby’s illegitimate child? I would think a lot less of Brandon if he hides his Ward and her child away to keep Marrianne happy.

Pishogue · 23/02/2019 16:42

I doubt the ward would ever have lived as a regular thing with Brandon, anyway, so it's not the case that she'd be suddenly banished on his marriage -- as a seduced woman with an illegitimate child in Austen's day, she could not appear in society or expect to marry, so the respectable thing to do would have been to 'form an establishment' for her separately with some respectable older woman as a companion (like Maria Bertram with Aunt Norris at the end of Mansfield Park). Possibly at a distance where she could pass as a widow.

I imagine Marianne's impulses would be very kind towards her, but it would have been a very complex relationship, anyway, as Eliza is both the illegitimate daughter of Brandon's first love, and Marianne's first love Willoughby's discarded and impregnated lover! That's going to make for complicated conversations over dinner...

(In fact, had Willoughby not impregnated Eliza and been disinherited for it, he would almost certainly have married Marianne because he would have inherited from his aunt and been free of the financial problems that made him marry the heiress Miss Grey...)

BartonHollow · 23/02/2019 16:46

My understanding and feel free to contradict or disprove is that :

Wards and "dependent ladies" couldn't reside with "unmarried males" without a female to act as a "chaperone"

This is why Georgiana lives away at school and with various gentlewomen when Darcy is single and moves in with he and Lizzie when they get married

Megan2018 · 23/02/2019 16:51

Agree with everything posted here- It is still my favourite ever book, loved before the film but the film did turn the characters into very different versions for me. The film Brandon is much more appealing! I used it for my GCSE English Lit coursework and devoured all the lit crit on it at the time.

I had the music “My fathers favourite” (the tune Marianne plays on the piano) to walk in to at my wedding.

FermatsTheorem · 23/02/2019 17:12

Everything Pishogue said! It's a brilliant piece of film making, right from the get-go (when I heard it was going to be made I thought "but that brilliant first chapter is unfilmable" - Ang Lee showed me how wrong I was).

(Mind you, Emma Thompson decided the dashing young man was the one for her... though of course in RL Greg Wise comes across as a complete sweetie and not at all caddish).

But book Brandon - utterly unfanciable and definitely a consolation prize. Though it makes sense once you realise JA isn't actually a romantic novelist in the modern sense; she's actually writing very acutely about the gender politics of her time. Marianne (and for that matter Charlotte in P&P) find themselves in situations where they have no options open to them (Marianne through her own "foolishness" - as judged by the standards of the time, and Charlotte through the misfortune of being born plain and relatively poor) - so actually, Brandon and Mr. Collins are the pragmatic "best of a bad set of choices" (governess/elderly lady's companion being about the only other ones open to them). JA doesn't give everyone happy endings, quite deliberately, not through oversight.

NotANotMan · 23/02/2019 17:32

The ward isn't meant to be Brandon's kid is she?
Also I'm not sure that's right about unmarried women not living with male relatives. Why wouldn't they? Miss Bingley 'keeps house' for Charles.

BartonHollow · 23/02/2019 17:37

Miss Bingley, yes, good point

But she is an adult not a child, I think children are expected to require women.

Brandon's wards are the daughter and granddaughter of his first love.

She died

Her daughter was corrupted by Willoughby

So Marianne would in fact be raising Willoughbys child with Brandon if he took them in

florentina1 · 23/02/2019 18:12

This age gap would not have been unusual for the period. Men had to make their fortune and establish a career before settling down. Then then needed a wife able to give them children. I suspect that, in real life, Marianne’s family would have put a lot of pressure on her to marry Brandon. She had made a right cake of herself in front of everyone and they would want to hide her away. I did not get the impression that she loved him. She was desperate to marry and he was the only one on offer. You have to remember that the Dashwoods had no money. It was her duty to marry well.

Pishogue · 23/02/2019 18:28

I've always wondered slightly why Georgiana has an establishment formed for her (is it in Ramsgate? some seaside place?) after she leaves school, rather than living at Pemberley with her brother. Obviously, the whole almost-elopement with Wickham couldn't have happened otherwise, so Austen needed to do it for the plot, but equally, she was enough invested in realism for it to presumably be a reasonably normal thing to do, as she clearly intends Darcy to be a doting big brother.

Is it because Georgiana's not out as soon as she leaves school, whereas Caroline Bingley is older, a sophisticated heiress, definitely on the marriage market, with her cap set at her brother's best friend, hence it makes sense for her to live with her sociable brother?

I mean, Darcy seems to be away from Pemberley more often than he's there throughout the novel, but for huge chunks of the time he's staying with the Bingleys, and Caroline Bingley adores Georgiana, so why wouldn't she simply stay there with her brother, too?