Formula feeding - excessive wind and painful cries. Help!

[Rarfy]

Hi

I'm wondering if you knowledgeable people may be able to help me with your expertise as i am struggling to get any joy from my health visitor.

My 6 week old formula fed baby is really struggling with her feeds and it seems to be much worse at night. She is on cow and gate.

She will happily take about 2 ounces (capable of doing 5 easily and has done) but after that becomes uncomfortable squirming around, arching her back and painful cries. She coughs and hiccups during her feeds and also sounds very phlegmy but only when feeding. During the day i can usually get her to continue and finish a 5 ounce bottle but at night she drifts off and it is better for both of us to let her sleep.

I have been around enough babies to know that something is not quite right but i'm not quite sure what. She has terrible wind and pumps almost constantly and they are loud and smelly and she grunts and groans before pumping. I have spoken to my dm about my concerns who has had 5 dc and lots of gdc and she has confirmed she has never known a baby pump so much and even she is starting to think there is a bit of a problem.

So with all that said above, any ideas? I thought refulx. Dr kindly prescribed gaviscon which we tried for 3 bottles and the 3rd feed was the worst she has had.

We have already moved upto mam size 2 teats which didnt make much of a difference really.

We started on infacol last night.

I am wondering if she has a problem digesting lactose? I am tempted to try a different formula but know it's not good for them to chop and change and can't decise whether a comfort forumla or just a different brand, possibly aptamil? Please help.

My health visitor basically says no to everything but i can't bear seeing baby in what looks like pain. Feeding should be q nice experience.

Thanks @MoMandaS she doesn't seem to suffer with reflux thankfully.

I will do some research on the hipp now. It's a shame GPs don't have specialist baby nurses who can help. I guess that's what health visitors are for?

In my experience, no medical professionals have a clue when it comes to infant feeding problems, probably because it's very subjective and hard to know what's really going on. A lot of it is trial and error and relies upon the parents' observations. But you're doing all you can for her, and whatever the issue is it's highly likely she'll grow out of it within a few months as her digestive system matures - that's what I found with all mine, anyway. Good luck!

I know i think if someone actually sat and watched you feed it would paint a much clearer picture.

You are probably right about trial and error!

It's so hard isn't it. I can relate well. My baby has CMPA as I said in my earlier post but there's still part of me that wonders if it's a coincidence.

It can take a month for the dairy to get out of their system so ask for another tin and explain that it's helped a bit but that you want to she how she is in a couple of weeks and then do a test, perhaps with hipp which is gentler. In my experience drs are truly rubbish at this. I have seen one knowledgeable GP but whose own child had CMPA.

There are is a Facebook group you could join - www.facebook.com/groups/60391942384/ cows milk protein allergy in babies - support group for parents. They will also be able to help support you and you'll see other people's experiences. I urge you to join if you're on Facebook.

This is our experience. Baby mixed fed. Symptoms: lots of poos, lots of wind, major rash at 2do (but also had infection and drs couldn't attribute it to anything specific), hiccups, colic, sicky (out of nose with cow and gate), lots of bubbles in tummy, snuffly - I think that's it. Absolutely not upset at all. Moved to aptimil pepti 1 and cut dairy out of my diet. Improved by week 1 and most symptoms gone by week 5 apart from bubbles in tummy and wind, which were reduced. Trialled Cow and Gate and vomited out of nose again and poos increased. Went back to pepti. Trialled Hipp and got lots of bubbles, mild rash, hiccups and lots of poos. Went back to pepti. Introduced dairy back into my diet and was all fine. Tried expressed milk and she screamed for hours and had a bit of a rash plus lots of bubbles again. Went back to pepti. Tried expressed milk again and cried but nothing else - next day major rash and gunky eye. Been on pepti since and due a trial again soon - she's 4mo now. Trouble is when we've tried things in the past its often coincided with illnesses so I feel hard to tell. Was the illness cmpa or was it just illness that had some of the cmpa symptoms. Plus she's a baby and these things often happen to babies just because without it being something like cmpa. It's been about a month since we've trialled and she's well so we're going to try again soon.

One thing I did at around December time when she was a couple of months old was keep a log. I had dates down the side and symptoms along the top and I'd just put a tick in the box and that way I could easily see what was going on in line with the formula she was on and if I was dairy free. I was able to use it as a record for the dr too. She now has a repeat prescription until she's 6 months old. Then I guess they'll reassess and see where she is. Tbh it's been mostly left to me to tell them whether I think she has it. I don't really know but I know that for whatever reason she's been poorly round about the times she's had dairy.

Keep a track of everything and get some more formula for now. I feel the same as you and don't want her to have it if she doesn't need it but sometimes it takes a while to be sure. It's also easier once you're in the system than trying to get back in again.

I could of wrote this about my little one!
Doctors, midwives and heath visitors all just kept telling me he'd grow out of it and just ride it out! But I couldn't watch him be so uncomfortable! He also suffered with constipation and would only go every 4/5 days!
I put him of colief, after trying everything else and he was so much better!
I never waited the 30 mins, because I fed on demand and he would never wait 30 mins, I made up a bottle in the prep machine, put in the drops and just left it while I changed his nappy then fed him! He's still a very windy boy, but it doesn't bother him now.. he just lets rip quiet happily.. unlike before where he'd be straining and crying for ages.
it took me a while to get the drops right, I went on the consistency of his poo, too runny meant too many drops, he settled on 2 per feed in the end. But start at the recommended dose and adjust it from there, trust your gut, you know your baby.
I hope you get on top of it soon.. it's such hard work with an unsettled baby. X

Just been reading about hipp organic i'm thinking that and colief might be the way forward.

Her worst symptom is the wind. She wont get it up, never has. She is currently laid on my knee straining writhing and forcing pumps out with a grunt a groan and a little cry. Her last feed was 5.30pm. I hate this!

It's good seeing that you have tried so many things it just shows its ok to do that. When you dc got a rash what was it like?

My dd has the usual milk spots on her face they go down her neck and across the top of her chest but are more pimpley on her chest and red whereas on her face they are lighter in colour.

The first rash she had was like a burn. Really vicious and covered her whole face but like I said, she also had an infection. She had a lumber puncture to work out what the infection was but they couldn't identify it because the sample was infected. So I don't know whether it was allergy related or not. Since then her rashes have been nowhere near as bad - more like when you lean on something and get a mark but a bit worse.

Thank you for getting back to me @MaverickSnoopy dd has no rash like that i think they literally are milk spots.

How terrible yours had to go through all that for nothing. Hopefully now they are getting a bit bigger it will naturally improve. Good luck for the next trial!

Hi. I struggled with my lo and you’ll see on any of these posts I go on about how good hipp organic is. In my experience my lo was awful with wind and took ages to feed and did have a little silent reflux. Infacol made him worse!! Swapped to mam bottles and hipp and different child. Hipp appears to me to be smoother, you just swirl it to mix rather than shake it up thus creating less bubbles. Love their ethos as well. Good luck it does get better. Also as pp said and hv confirmed to me they don’t get trained as such on formulas and they all contradicted each other

Thanks @EmsDods. Can you explain what you mean by terrible wind? Her poos are really rather runny on this aptimil pepti and i would say her wind is one and the same really. Maybe easier to get up with the infacol bjt she is still pumping a huge amount and grunting and groaning as she does. A little bit more sicky than normal too.

Oh and we are already using mam bottles. One thing i do like about the aptimil pepti is it is very smooth. The cow and gate was vert frothy which to me made me think it must be creating lots of wind. E.g. i would make a 4 ounce bottle with the perfect prep and the froth would take it upto and over the 5 ounce mark.

Thanks OP - my DD had to have 2 lumber punctures because they couldn't get a sample at all the first time. In the end they gave up. She had 5 canullas too. It was a horrible time...but you'd never know now.

Your baby's rash might be milk spots but cmpa rashes do present in different ways. I'm a member of several Facebook groups and people are always posting pictures of rashes and they all differ.

MAM bottles here too which have definitely helped but she still has awful wind. The bubbles in her tummy have gone now but she still has awful wind but not as much as before. It's smellier than before but that's the formula that makes it smell so awful. Same as with her poos - runnier but that's the formula. It's taken a lot of time for her tummy to settle down though.

Agree about cow and gate. Interestingly my first two children were on it with no trouble at all but DD3 reacts awfully. She was admitted to hospital (for the infection) at 4do and they gave her cow and gate for the first time (she had 14% weight loss and they wanted her to have formula as my supply was minimal and I'd had supply issues in the past) and it literally started pouring out of her nose as she was sick. Then when we trialled it at home a couple of months later the same thing happened. Won't be touching it again. Having previously thought it was a great formula I wonder if it's just no good for sensitive babies. I did look into their comfort milk but then she ended up on pepti. Thing is even if she doesn't have CMPA, because she was sensitive to "something" and was having all of those symptoms, the formula is better for her because the cows milk protein is broken down and easier for her to digest. If your baby seems better in a couple of weeks then it's probably the right thing for her.

I have one caveat - my first two children had all sorts of things going on that made me wonder if there was something deeper going on. Babies often do and just grow our out of them as they settle down.

Parenting is a minefield OP.

Your poor dd @MaverickSnoopy good job she was so young. It really is difficult. I supposs the aptimil pepti is doing no harm so i could keep her on it i may have to ask for a bigger prescription though as gp only prescribed one tin which i guess is whats making me anxious. Also the fact i may treat her as cma when in fact she is not which will be a shame when she gets to weaning age and probably a bit more difficult to manage. Fine if she is but if she's not i'd rather avoid that route.

You obviously know how difficult this is still not having got to the bottom of it with your dd. How old is she now?

In the back of my mind i do worry this could be some sort of post natal thing i have going on and i know too much if you know what i mean? If it weren't for mumsnet i wouldn't even know half these conditions existed and would probably just accept my dd feeds like that because she does or hammer the infacol and gripe water.

@Rarfy thanks for your question. I mean on c&g he just wouldn’t burp and it all got trapped, he was constipated. For us infacol made it worse but others find it really suits.
Hipp was less bubbly he seemed to bring up burps better and his poo was quite normal. Good luck I think you’re doing great as it’s a stressful time isn’t it. Bless you.

Thanks for getting back to me @EmsDods. My dd is the same. Full of wind all purple round the mouth but it doesnt matter what position you get her in it just wont come out not as a burp anyway. She pumps a lot during a feed then again a couple of hours after a feed.

On her first bottle of the day, around 6am she just never really settles back down on her own. Lays there grunting,groaning,raising her legs and letting out big blokey farts! Even on this new milk.

Last night she took about 3 -3.5 ounces at 9.30. I put her down about 10.30pm (usually takes an hour to feed and wind). She would normally babble for a bit then drift off but for some reason last night she was crying so i had to settle her until about 11.30 - 12. Then she woke for a feed at 2.00pm and took about 2 -2.5ounces. Went straight back down that time (after an hour feeding / whingeing / changing). Then she started stirring about 5.15am and grunting groaning farting until i got up and fed her at about 6. Took about 3 - 3.5 ounces tried to put her back down but she was unsettled farting away so we got up. Took her down for some skin to skin she fell straight asleep and is still flat out. Great for her but going to be a fun day for me!

I've got a prescription for 2 more tins of aptimil pepti and am awaiting a call from gp. I think i'd rather try hipp and colief or a comfort formula.

@Rarfy I remember those days well! Bless you. It’s just finding what works for you and I know that you’ve mentioned getting checked out for allergies etc and that’s important. Luckily for us it was just trying the formulas until we came across the right one. Mam bottles certainly helped but I do remember that others used Dr Browns as well and swear by them too. We are now at weaning stage and still using hipp formula. Best of luck and feel free to pm if you like. Hope you have a helpful hv and gp unlike mine

My DD is now 4mo and my plan is to try expressed milk this week to see what happens. The thing is although you've tried it for a week, any dairy won't be out of her system yet. So if you stop now and move to something else you haven't really ruled anything out, especially if you move to hipp and have the same problems. I would stick it out for another couple of weeks and then try the hipp. That way you're doing one thing at a time. This is the official advised way of doing it - dairy free until out of system and symptoms have gone and then trial/test it to see if there's a reaction (can come after 24 hours). I completely understand your reluctance and know just how you feel.

Thanks @mavericksnoopy that is probably really sensible advice i just can't fathom how the milk is still causing the massive wind problems when she hasn't had it for three days now.

In one sense i am happy to stay on the new milk to rule cma out but in another thats more time her being uncomfortable.

She sounds exactly like my 7 week old, except he’s EBF. He really really struggles to get wind out. Farts a lot and they’re often very smelly. Grunts and groans and writhes around in pain while farting. He really struggles to settle at all after his 4am ish feed, he just grunts and pulls his legs up and whinges.
He doesn’t really cry though so not typical colic. We’ve tried infacol, dentinox and colief but no noticeable difference. He has however seemed to improve a bit over the past 3/4 days.
He’s my third baby, my first 2 had diagnosed reflux but these symptoms seem completely different to theirs. In my very non expert opinion the wind is the biggest issue. His poos are normal, no rashes etc, he just struggles to bring wind up and once it gets too far down he’s then in pain forcing it out the other end. As his digestive system matures and he gets bigger I think it will improve.

As his digestive system matures and he gets bigger I think it will improve. This is what I was trying to say in one of my earlier posts - but this is better put! It's a balancing act between working on if it's normal newborn behaviour or something else.

Dairy can take up to 3 weeks to leave the body. This is what I was told by the consultant at the hospital, a dietician, the GP and a breatfeeding support worker. You can also Google it and find the same result. So if there is dairy still in his system then that's why there are still symptoms....or he doesn't have CMPA at all. Honestly, keeping him on this for another 2 weeks would be the best long term solution. Then you can challenge it with hipp and see what happens. Then you'll know for sure. If you stop now and go to hipp and he is still having the same symptoms then you'll need to try the pepti again and start from scratch, which would be more intrusive for him. I totally understand why you have reservations though and you have to do what you feel most comfortable doing.

Thanks everyone. I have spoken with another gp today who said it doesn't sound like CMA and i feel the same. Her suggestion was to try the aptamil for another couple of days then move onto comfort milk.

Tbh the main problem is the wind /stomache ache and i suspect that is why she was refusing the feeds. She is phlemgy when feeding still but is even with the aptamil. This only happens when feeding so although i appreciate the long time for any cows milk to leave her system the fact this only happens when feeding and is still happening makes me think that can't really be linked to CMA.

God i really dont know but i have another half tin and will perservere for a few days at least. I would like to think if the milk is causing the wind it would start to ease it a little.

Welcome to parenthood. All the fun of tying yourself up in knots! The good news is that once you've figured this out, there will be something else to deal with 😉

Be careful with GPs when it comes to allergies, they don't know very much. The important thing is that you're happy with your choice though. There's definitely something to be said for a mothers instinct. I hope she feels better soon. It's horrible watching them struggle so much.

Oh god i can imagine the joys lol!

Well i went against all advice gave a cow and gate bottle and she has thrown up everywhere. Serves me right!

All your advice i must add. Dp and dm wanted me to go back onto the cow and gate straight away.