DNephew keeps attacking my DS

[TortoiseLettuce]

DNephew (3) keeps hitting my DS (11m) in the face with toys. Usually because DS has put his hand out to touch either DNephew or the toy (in some cases it’s DS’s own toy that DNephew is playing with). It’s not just a swing or a general lash out - he’s purposely jabbing the toy horizontally straight into the middle of DS’s face.

We see DNephew and his parents approx every 6 weeks. The issue began when DS became mobile, so the last three visits have been a problem. Today DNephew rammed DS in the face with a 6 inch wide wooden bus using both hands and gave him a nosebleed. The bus belongs to DS - DNephew had taken it off him about an hour previously and was screaming Nonono mine! every time DS tried to touch it. His parents did nothing and I didn’t want to stick my nose in and annoy them by trying to discipline their child, I just distracted DS with a different toy thinking they’ll be gone shortly anyway. But DS wanted his favourite bus so he kept trying to touch it and the culmination was DNephew attacking him. Shortly afterwards DNephew rammed the bus into our sleeping dog’s face too.

SIL’s response was to tell DNephew he had to say sorry. No punishment or discipline. Then she gave him the bus back and tried to minimise his behaviour by saying he usually plays with kids his own age and doesn’t know his own strength. I was furious so I put DS in the car and took him to my parents out of the way.

I’ve told DH I don’t want to see them any more because this behaviour is unacceptable. DH says he can’t stop them visiting, what would he say? He can’t possibly say they’re not welcome because their son is a vicious little shit! And DNephew is only 3 so this is to be expected, if we keep them apart he’ll never learn to behave nicely with DS, he doesn’t want to create a family rift and ruin occasions such as Xmas and birthdays etc. Personally I couldn’t give a flying fart about any of that, I don’t want my child being attacked! Now I don’t know what to say to any of them. Is this normal behaviour?

It sounds like you are pretty set in your view on it and you are right that it’s not your job to discipline your nephew however you will find as your ds gets older and starts playing with other children more that you will come up against this kind of situation again. People parent differently and you’ll find there’ll be many many situations on play dates etc where you sit there thinking ‘I wouldn’t do it like that’ and people will think it about you too! I do think when your ds is 3 you will look back on this and cringe slightly if you turn it into a big thing and fall out with family over it. You mention time out etc but lots of parents don’t use this technique. Like previous posters have said, it’s impulse control at that age and of course they need telling firmly that it’s wrong but it doesn’t necessarily stop them doing it. They don’t learn impulse control overnight.

Still don't see why the OP would cringe.

A friend visited with her toddler when DD was a baby. She allowed her DS to spit juice (No typo, sipped milk from a cup then spat) all over my floor several times, and smeared banana and chocolate everywhere, barely a whisper from my friend. I swore I wouldn't be permitting that kind of behaviour and never have. No cringing here.

(Also her child was still at it, stamping crisps into my fucking floor, the next time I allowed a visit several years later).

Going against the grain here l would not put up with this, l would get down in front of DN and say, 'we do not hit, it hurts, don't do this again' and take toy off him and put it away.
Let him yell.

If he did it again, l would say 'If you don't stop hitting l will take all toys except cuddly toys.' Then if it happened again do just that.

I had a baby and toddler 16 months apart and this is how l dealt with those issues and it worked fine they soon played nicely.

If the parents don't like it well tough, l couldn't let a child hit another hard enough to cause a nosebleed and not intervene, how will they learn to play nicely if not tought?

I don’t think it is our role to teach DNephew how to behave.

Well, true, you are not the one who is primarily responsible for teaching DN to behave. But, it takes a village. This is a 3 year old child, your family! You having the confidence to require good behaviour might be very helpful to his parents.

Many many many times I've guided other people's children into better behaviour, as I thank them for doing with my children! I would have no problem at all looking DN in the eye, catching the incoming bus, and saying a firm 'No, we do not hit our friends,' then removing the bus and my child from the area for a short time.

I can understand your frustration, but I think going nuclear over this is a mistake. I think your dh is wrong that they'll just magically figure it out, at age 7/8/9 ish that's appropriate. A 3 year old is still learning and needs the explicit instruction. You could be such a gift in your nephew's life.

I’m a bit worried that I’m an awful parent who doesn’t discipline their child now. My DS is nearly 2.5 and we don’t (yet) use time outs. I explain it’s unkind and hurts then tell him to say sorry and give a hug if he hurts me or someone else - he knows it has some important meaning because we’ve had epic battles where he refuses to say it, but maybe this varies by child. In this situation I’d obviously have taken the bus away as well and we’d probably have gone home if I had judged he wasn’t willing to play nicely and safely with his cousin but none of that is really a punishment as such it’s a consequence. I think the concern here is the parents of the cousin not actively parenting beforehand and making him take turns with the toy or directing him onto something else before it reached this stage.
It seems like you are either going to have to step in to manage behaviour at an earlier stage ‘sorry cousin that’s DSs bus and it’s his turn now, since you are such a big boy could you build him a road/bridge/tunnel to push it on’ or try to keep them apart. Toddlers do hit, bite, throw things etc and punishment after the fact is too late to protect your DS. If cousins parents won’t prevent your child being hurt you need to one way or another.

Totally get that but that behaviour isn’t the same as what the OP is describing. What your friends child was doing wasn’t down to lack of impulse control, it was downright disgusting and shouldn’t have been tolerated. But getting possessive over toys and lashing out is very normal behaviour that MOST 2/3 year olds do at some point. The parents should definitely be addressing it 100% but I think most mums of babies when it’s their first one think ‘well MY child won’t do that, I’ll deal with it so much better’ etc etc... and in reality your child probably will do it (or something similar) and sometimes you won’t deal with it perfectly or you’ll be embarrassed and won’t know what to do or your methods won’t work. I agree with what someone else said as well that some parents aren’t great at disciplining in front of an audience because they feel embarrassed so would rather ignore / brush over the bad behaviour than cause a scene. Not saying that’s right but it doesn’t always mean the parent thinks the behaviour is fine, they just might feel unable to make a big fuss in front of family with judgemental eyes on them.

Drwhy- but you gave a clear example of how you would parent your child in this situation. I'd probably do that too.

I'm stunned by the other responses that seem to be saying this isn't a big deal. He hit a baby so hard the babies nose bled! I can't believe parents would just be like "oh yeah, toddlers do that.. let's carry on with our chat"

I wouldn't be seeing them again until she could learn to manage their interactions better.

Sorry that was to OMGithurts

DrWhy - expecting a pre-schooler to say sorry is pointless and I wouldn't encourage hugging a stranger as part of an apology. If your son hurt another child then the last thing that they probably want is a hug. It could result in the other child lashing out at your ds because they think that they are going to be hurt again plus if you've just been hurt then you want the physical space. Obviously hugging a parent after lashing out is a different situation.

Your son is 2.5 and the nephew is over 3. There is a big difference at that age. 12 months is nearly half of your child's life! The rest you are doing perfectly. Confiscating the toy is appropriate discipline for now.

Jeez. And the poor dog, what if he'd retaliated.
I wouldn't have him in the house and I wouldn't mind saying why.
Why are people so afraid to discipline their kids? When I was a child, the nearest adult would have spanked him and no one would have sympathised.

...and why are people so afraid to discipline other people's kids?

If I was in the same position OP- in my own home with my ds on my knee and a 3 year old came up and hit him hard enough to make his nose bleed - I'd have no problems with disciplining him if I knew his parents were unlikely to! Kids at 3 do know the basics of wrong and right (even if they can't link the consequences of either) and a short sharp (age appropriate) wtf would definitely not go amiss here. Yes an apology is good but dn needs to know that he's done wrong and hurt your ds. Your home, your kid, your rules. And if bil and sil don't like it they can step in and model some positive play and behaviour if they're not going to deal effectively with the shitty behaviour!

I’ve had 3 kids and I would not be mortified by the OP’s post

3 year olds need to be taught what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. Bashing babies is not acceptable. If you have a child that hits, as a parent, you have to be watching them like a hawk around other children and get ready to intervene if it looks like bashing will happen/or it has. Your in laws need to parent their child- to show the child acceptable ways of interacting with a baby, teach him about other people’s toys and to remove him from the situation if it gets too much.

I’ve been in situations where another kid is hitting my child...playgroups etc where mums would often be distracted or too busy chatting to see what was going on. I’d show the child acceptable ways of interacting with mine...gentle touch, run the bus on the floor not in the air etc, or be quite firm if my child had something and they took it “X was playing with that, you can have it next”. Generally this worked well.

There have times when I’ve had to tell off my nearly 3 year old niece for her behaviour.

Difference there is though, her dad is pretty wet and will do anything to keep her happy.

Especially as when she’s told off she starts crying for her mum. Her parents are split up and mum lives a good few hours away

I explain it’s unkind and hurts then tell him to say sorry and give a hug if he hurts me or someone else

So he's learning it's ok to hurt someone and then invade their personal space to force a hug on them having hurt them because he said sorry?

Nice one. Didn't mean to push you into that wall/down those stairs so here's a hug. Sowwy.

Preempt and avoid the bad behaviour as much as you can. So special toys they may fight over hide or leave in the car.

Before you put your son down explain to nephew that big children must be really gentle with little babies and dogs . If nephew shows an interest, show him some games your son may like to play (peekaboo?)

If nephew's only interested in toys then it's just a case of being watchful, keeping your son from gettjng in the way of nephew's game and not being afraid to step in to protect your son if necessary.

If he hits your child with a toy, say we don't hit, its unkind and hurts, then take it away.

My own children would have been removed from the situation and had time out followed by an 'sorry for hurting you' rather than just 'sorry'. But removing the toy and saying don't hit, you've hurt DS is the most you can really do with someone else's DC.

3yo can be really hard work!

@CheddarAndCrackers my first reaction to your post was ODFOD because frankly the sarcastic last sentence was totally unnecessary (actually it’s ‘solly’ because his ‘r’s are more of an ‘l’ than a ‘w’ at the moment. However it’s made me reflect.
I actually agree that maybe we need to rethink the hugs, we used them as a way for him to ‘apologise’ when he was pre-verbal copied from a friend who’s children are a couple of years ahead of mine and are turning out great so far. We’ve never used it with someone he doesn’t know well as we’ve never needed to and you are quite right that it’s not appropriate in that situation. We’ll have to rethink that one. The ‘sorry’ however, I still think is important - it’s not a meaningless word, in our society an apology is huge (look at the pages of posts about prince Phillips car crash for example) it’s an acknowledgement that you were at fault that you did some form of harm to another person and you regret that. I am aware that a pre-schooler doesn’t fully comprehend all that but DS certainly knows it’s an important word or he wouldn’t be willing to spend so long not being allowed to do anything he wants to while he refuses to say it! If you don’t start using it with them early when do you expect them to suddenly get the meaning and importance and start to use it? It of course has to be accompanied by any appropriate consequence, such as not being allowed to continue to play with a toy that’s being used to hit or bring taken away from a situation where he could hurt someone again but I don’t plan to stop making him say it.

Your son and dog need to be kept safe, your husband is failing them so it’s up to you. If your dog tries to protect itself from being attacked and scared by a kid, it will end up being reported and killed, which is appallling. Your child needs to be kept separate from the kid, they won’t ‘play nicely’, they’re at completely different developmental phases and one isnt being parented. Giving them toys while the adults all chat shite isn’t an option at this stage, if you all have to socialise, do it at a child-centred venue or make yourself and your child and pet unavailable.