Off sick, can I work a 2nd job? Complicated.

[SobaYakitori]

This is complicated so please bear with me, it will probably be long. I'll try to do a tldr. In chat for traffic I'm afraid - I never seem to have much luck with the legal/employment boards.

I'm currently off sick with work stress, I am contracted to do 4 x 8.5hr days.
I am also going to be made redundant - I'm not sure when, it's very early in the process.

As work is what's causing the problems I have been looking for a new job for a while and have been invited for interview for a job I'd really love to do. But it's quite time sensitive, and I don't know when work would let me go with my redundancy payment.

Technically as it's part time I could do both jobs at the same time, they don't overlap, but are on the same days. Would be 3hrs job 2 then 8.5hrs job 1 with 1 hr in between which is a doable commute.

What's my position in being off sick from one job but working another?

My contract says I must get permission to work another job. Is that enforceable? If I don't tell them would they know?

Would job 2 stop me getting redundancy payment from job 1 (could technically work both so I'm hoping not?)

Being paid ssp from job 1 - would hmrc stop that if I work job 2 (basically would job 1 find out from hmrc)

What if I do job 2 as a volunteer until redundancy if it's only a short period - would that be better? (don't really want to, I need the money, but this is a role I have done voluntarily in the past, so the possibility is there.)

I appreciate some might think this is a bit grabby, I can't put all the details here to justify this and I'm not in a good place to be told I'm an awful human. This is a big organisation, they probably pay more on loo roll than my salary, I just want what I'm entitled to, not to defraud anyone.

TL:DR I'm off sick and being made redundant. If I get my dream job while off sick how can I protect my redundancy payment.

I'm not 100% sure BUT if you are signed off sick from work, but are found fit to work (or found working) another job you would lose your ssp and possibly be in breach of your work contract so could be dismissed - relieving them of having to pay you redundancy money? My advice would be to sit tight and keep everything clear and not blur any lines until you have your main job/redundancy sorted.
Give citizens advice a ring unless someone who works in HR can give you a better answer here than me. It sounds like a case of bad timing at the moment, but ultimately you need to be careful to protect yourself and any redundancy you're entitled to etc x
Good luck and I hope you feel better soon x

It’s not really fraud, as you have been signed off by a doctor and it is possible to be fit for one job but not another. You’ll need to tell HMRC for tax code purposes.

I’d be more worried though about your current employer either saying no if you ask them, or finding out if you don’t ask them, and then taking the opportunity to dismiss you for misconduct for the latter to try and avoid redundancy

Could you ask job 1 for a settlement agreement? You could say that as you know you’re getting made redundant and you’re off with stress you’d be willing to take the money now in return for signing a settlement. That should leave you free to take up new employment, get your money and means they’ll be secure you won’t claim against them for anything

Are you claiming SSP?

How much is the redundancy? Assuming you're successful at interview for job 2, it might be better to cut your losses and resign from job 1 to insure you
a) stay in employment and
b) have a job you like

Thanks.

YouBumder that's pretty much my thinking. I'm hoping to be let go early, but in the event they don't agree i would still like to do job 2 if at all possible.

Yes, getting SSP.

Redundancy is just over 3k. That's 9 year's worth, for context. It would be enough when added to my other savings for a house deposit, so I really want to get it if I can. I wouldnt be able to save 3k in the foreseeable future.

Honestly, for the sake of £3k I think I'd just leave if I got offered another job. Unless I was confident I'd be able to get another suitable job I liked if I left on the employer's timeline. Having a job is better than having redundancy pay.

The person I knew who did this lost both jobs, they argued as they were totally different jobs in different organisations it was ok but they'd been signed off on the fit note as incapable of doing any work for organisation one - is that what your fit note says?

Organisation one argued if the fit note had said they were fit for some work they'd have still been employed with them doing work.

I believe it was HMRC how employer one found out because the tax code changed as a result of two jobs and SSP was stopped.

I hope that makes sense and isn't too vague (its not me so needs to be vague!)

Sounds like you’be got a No Moonlighting clause in your current contract which would prohibit this

does seem a shame to forfeit redundancy, but getting a new job is fantastic!

i dont think you could carry on being off sick

There's some useful information here.

Why would you continue to be off sick and go to work in the new job? That's fraudulent and dishonest. Just hand in your notice and start the new job as usual. For 3k redundancy it's just not worth a fraud conviction I'm afraid. And it is fraud. If you have a sick note then you're not fit for work.

I’m a lawyer (not employment). What you need to do is go back to Job 1, get permission to do Job 2 (see if your contract says this permission ‘may not be unreasonably withheld’), and do both until you get your redundancy. I accept this is shit for your short-term stress levels but if you want Job 2 and the redundancy this is what you need to do. Job 1 will find out about Job 2 from HMRC, they then may be able to fire you for breach of contract (as you don’t have permission for Job 2), or they may not select you for redundancy as they will think you will leave anyway. It’s up to you to weigh up the short-term pain vs long-term gain

Can you approach Employer 1 and ask to be released early? You maybe able to broker a settlement agreement with them instead of redundancy and get the same amount. It saves them any consultation process.

Might be worth an off the record with HR?

Thanks all.

Yes, my plan is to approach job 1 about early redundancy (it's a business closure, so I'll definitely be made redundant, everyone will be unless they relocate to another branch) I really hope they'll want to get rid of me as much as I want to leave. Fingers crossed.

Becca that is interesting, thank you. And yes, it makes sense!

Isla I'd want to stay off sick because it is specifically job 1 that has made me sick. I do not want to return. I was planning to quit once I was well enough to do another job, but am now being made redundant after almost 10 yrs service and dont want to do myself out of the payment. I know it's not a lot to many people, but it is a significant amount to us and, as I said before, would let us buy our first home.

I don't think it is fraud, but I think it could be gross misconduct / breach of contract as Belle says- that's what I'm asking, and thanks for your opinion. My thought process is I'm medically unfit for job 1, but not unfit for job 2. I don't know if the law / job 1 would see it that way though.

My concern, which I admit may be anxiety driven due to the stress, is that if my manager has any say then in order to be deliberately malicious she would veto an early redundancy if she knows that's what I want. She is that petty. So I'm nervous about tipping my hand.

If you have a sick note then you're not fit for work.

If she’s off with work related stress specifically related to job A, it’s perfectly possible she could be fit for work in job B where the same stressors do not apply.

I am an employment solicitor. I can't post a long reply, as I'm on my phone, but Belle and Champagne have it right. If you're going to try to negotiate an early exit, don't tell your current employer that you have a new job lined up.

The legal position about working for one employer whilst off sick from another, is complicated and somewhat uncertain at present. The position is not as black and white as some of the answers from posters might suggest.

youbumder it depends on what the dr put on the sick/fit note. If they put incapable of any work then it's a problem. That was the problem the person I knew had, if the note had for example said they couldn't work as a cleaner but could do other work like desk job because of a reaction to chemicals then it may have been less clear cut but the note was clear - unfit for any work and as far as they were concerned that meant any work anywhere and it was the same for the second employer as well.

I'm not an employment lawyer and it was awhile ago so things may now be different. It all depends on what is on the OPs sick/fit note (not that they need to disclose that here of course).

soba good luck.

Definitely take control here and get ahead of it all - don't potentially lose your redundancy if they're you go for breech if contract.

Negotiate an early exit and keep quiet about the job, just tell them you're willing to leave early if they don't cut your redundancy and also get your accrued holidays paid

Congrats on the job offer!

I'd negotiate an exit without mentioning the new role.