Knowledge of Jewish customs, anyone?

[Clawdy]

Doing some family history research, and I was trying to find out about my great-grandad, who was never talked about. My dad's sister is the only surviving member of my family, and she said she had heard a rumour that he was an Orthodox Jew, whose father owned a factory. He fell in love with an Irish girl working there, and they set up home together and had three children, one of whom was my grandad. Apparently, the Jewish family were distraught, and, according to my aunt, they did some sort of mourning ceremony as if he was dead, and " turned all pictures of him round to face the wall." The problem is, she said most of her family denied it all, and said he wasn't Jewish at all. Can't think why so much detail was made up though.His name was Fidler, which could be a Jewish name. Anyone Jewish out there who could help?

Hi, I'm not able to help with the Jewish knowledge but I do family history. Have you found census, birth and marriage records? These may well have some clues as to their heritage.

If you let me know how far you've got I can point you in the right direction.

There are specific websites for Jewish genealogy as well - jewishgen.org

Jewish religion comes from the mother so when a couple get married and the wife is Jewish they become a Jewish family so maybe that's where it all originates from. The fact his wife wasn't jewish

Hi OP

I'm Jewish, but atheist and non-practising. I do know some odd bits though.

If no one better comes along, can I help?

What is it you want to know? After a death, religious Jews do cover mirrors (and probably pictures). It's so you can't see the grief reflected in your face.

The mourning ritual sounds like sitting shiva.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_(Judaism)

And yes, in religious communities families would treat someone who married out as dead, including sitting shiva.

Thanks for these replies. I have tried looking up records in the past but can't seem to find a birth certificate for him, or a death certificate. My dad never seemed to have known him, and as I say, he was never talked about. I will look on that Jewish genealogy site, thanks for the tip Schlobbob. FreshlyWashed what do you think of the name Fidler? I think it sounds Jewish. We always pronounced it "Fydler" when I was younger.

Clawdy are you thinking about Fiddler on the Roof???

I do know a couple of Jewish families with that surname, but I don't think the Jews have copyrighted it or anything. Aren't most surnames affiliated to a trade in any case? (eg, Smith).

I emphasis again, I'm not a practising Jew, so probably not much help

You won't find actual certificates online, copies can be ordered from the GRO. Birth registration was compulsory from 1837 so assuming he was born in the UK he would have been registered

www.gro.gov.uk

Search by name, and year and it will give you a list of all babies born it that year with that name - you can narrow it down by area. It also gives mother's maiden name which really helps as you go further back in time

That all sounds about right to me (I'm Jewish). If your grandfather's mother wasn't Jewish, then his father's family would have considered him "dead" (to them, to their religion). Essentially, by marring a non-Jewish woman, who presumably didn't convert (by Irish, I'm going to assume that she was RC and presumably staunchly so), your great-grandfather had, indeed, ceased to be Jewish.

My ex's parents are a Protestant/RC mix, and when my ex and his siblings were born, their Protestant mother had to raise them all as RC, with no thought to her own, different, religious traditions. RC is seemingly bred into its members (and I type as someone whose schooling was RC from the age of 11, and whose closest friends are/children's father is RC). Religion's a funny thing which dominates and often destroys families. My children are, by dint of me, Jewish - although my ex likes to try to claim my son is RC when around his own elderly relatives.

If your great-great-grandparents were Orthadox, then they would have been devastated by the marriage of their son to an Irish girl - particularly one who worked in the factory which they owned! Because not only is that religion, that's social status, too!

Fidler is, indeed, a Jewish name. Do you know which tribe he stemmed from? Because if you do, that might help with the research.

This might help, OP:

www.hebrewsurnames.com/FIDLER

This happened in my family. Luckily the next generation on both sides and some of the generation that it "happened" to,didn't pay much attention to religious ramifications and just loved their family member.
Devout to different religions on both sides.

Lots of really helpful info on here, thank you all so much.Think I will be doing a bit more research this weekend now!

Try starting with your dads birth cert that will name your grandparents then look for them and through theirs you should find what you are looking for

Yep. Sounds about right for some orthodox Jewish communities. Still happens. Happened to a friend of mine.

I've known of similar in the extreme end of most faiths.

Feilin thanks, just rang my sister who has our grandad 's birth certificate. Great-grandad's name was Frederick, which doesn't really sound like a Jewish name, does it? Especially in the 1860s, which I imagine is when he was born, although we don't know that. It's a real puzzle. If he wasn't Jewish, where did such a detailed story come from, and why? Families, eh!

That sounds like they disowned him when he decided to marry a non Jewish girl. It sounds like they sat Shiva which is a mourning ritual. His name may have been Frederick but also perfectly possible he anglicised it to not give hint of his jewish routes. Again he could have changed surname If he was Jewish then there is most likely some record of his family arrival probably at that time from Russia or Poland. You could check census information on ancestry.com

He would never have ceased to be Jewish even if he converted to another religion as Jewish is by birth not practice.

Thanks, Believability, I hadn't thought about the name possibly being changed, that's really interesting.

Do you know where in the country he lived? Everything you have mentioned does point to him being Jewish.

if you have his birth certificate then search for his parents next

The surname Fidler sounds very Jewish. As others have pointed out a lot of surnames names were changed to sound more anglicised on arrival in their new homeland. I know of a family in the Jewish community here called Fiddler.

When my cousin told my grandparents he was going to marry his non-Jewish girlfriend, my Grandpa said he would sit shiva as my cousin was now ‘dead’. My DF had very stern words and told him he would do nothing of the kind. That he would welcome this girl, buy them a nice gift, go to their wedding or he and my Grandma would be the ones who lost out as if there were any grandkids they’d never get to see them etc. Amazingly they listened and went on to adore my cousins wife and their grandchildren when they arrived. But yes the whole turning pictures and mirrors to the wall during mourning is a ‘thing ‘ as is mourning for a relative who has married out (in some orthodox families).

The mid 18th century saw a huge influx of Jews from Eastern Europe into the UK and America so the dates make sense.

He lived in Manchester, Believability. I know there was a Jewish MP called Michael Fidler, from near Manchester, in the 1960s, but I've googled his background, and there don't seem to be any links.

Mouse, that is fascinating.