Advice on suitable consequence - 11yr old

[Karmin]

So I have woken up this morning to £136 worth of charges on my paypal for fortnite.

Yes I have removed and contacted epic games, just in case they can refund but I accept that it is unlikely. He deliberately added my paypal to his account, it was not on there previously, I have changed my paypal password and my PC password.

He is a newly turned 11 yr old, NT, completely aware and understanding of what he was doing.

He will be paying me back through his pocket money.
He will be banned from the game, and screens.

But what on earth do I say that will make an impact? Has anyone experienced similar and used a consequence that worked?

Whilst he's aware of what he's doing, impulse control isn't good enough, especially with gaming and games like fortnite.

No-one under 16 should get your account passwords and above that only after very careful thought.

Is there a time limit of the ban? I think he should be able to earn it back. Like you work for money.

Does he have a good understanding of hourly wages/budgeting etc, or are you well off, so it wouldn't make a difference?

Think of it like leaving food out and a dog getting it, yes it deserves some punishment, so they learn better. But whose fault is it?

Firstly I have to ask....why and how did he have your password in the first place? My DC wouldn't have a clue.

I think the paying you back and banning is ample.

He has to learn through experience.

I say that as someone whose one Teen ran up a phone bill in the hundreds, on a house phone, before unlimited packages.

A lot of the issues Ive seen with some pre teens is being given too much freedom and not enough supervision.

4w ban with 10 chores a week (for 4w) to "repay" the cost.

Quiet disappointment always has the biggest impact in my experience. Tell him that you would never steal from him and ask him why he thought it was to steal from you.

If he's actually added your PayPal to do this and it wasn't there previously that's planned, not an impulsive click of a button. He had to think and then act on it not act then think about it.
An 11 year old I'd go down the route of explaining that what he's done is actually theft and fraud, that using someone's PayPal without their knowledge and consent is very serious.

I wouldn't shout or lose it but I would explain calmly and clearly.

I have no idea how he had my password, but I completely accept my fault in this, he has got my password added the paypal to his account and bought a lot of v-bucks.

If he had my PC password, chrome may have filled in the paypal password. Or he may have had the paypal password. Both are now changed but I accept that its too late.

To a previous poster, the amount means we will certainly be overdrawn this month and it will take a while to put right.

Why do people say 'consequences' when they mean 'punishment'? Genuine question.

Anyway, I think the punishments that you've already decided on are enough really. However, I would also be explaining to him that what he has done is actually fraud and would likely get him into trouble with the police if you had reported it. Luckily for him you realised that you hadn't been hacked by a stranger and haven't reported him. Explain how disappointed you are, it's a betrayal of trust etc etc. No need to get angry, just be very disappointed with how he's behaved. Most 11 yo children would be quivering wrecks of regret and guilt at this point. If he's not then IMHO you need to keep a very close eye on him.

@NChangeForNoReason That does seem like the way to go, and is a logical consequence.

@reallybadidea to me there is a difference, a consequence is the result or direct effect of an action so the logical consequence of stealing is repayment, of destruction, would be repairing or replacing. A punishment is an aversive response to a behaviour that aims to make the behaviour less likely to occur in the future so groundings and loss of phone privileges for older ones, time out for little ones. Punishments only teach children what not to do, not what to do.

Here

Another consequence I might add to this is vastly reduced ordinary treats: no crisps, biscuits, magazines etc. Expain that you can;t afford them this month because that money has been spent and he isn;t paying you back in a lump sum, so the money for extras just isn't there. They don't realise money is finite. When it's gone, it's gone.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think 'consequences' are always logical and I don't think that they do necessarily teach children what the 'right' thing to do is. I think that your chosen consequence of doing extra jobs to pay you back is actually a punishment in reality because you are artificially creating it. You wouldn't otherwise be paying someone else to do this job, you're just choosing to let him pay off his debt in this way. Logically, he might deduce from your consequence that if he wanted to steal from you in future then he can simply do some jobs from you to pay you back. Taking the money from his allowance is an actual consequence because he will be deprived of the money.

And you've given him a screen ban and yet you say in your post that taking a phone away is a punishment?

@reallybadidea Yep, I can see your view point, I don't think I was clear, if my DS played on his phone when I had sent him to bed, keeping the phone downstairs is a logical consequence. If he had told me to F Off (never has but an example) and I banned him from the computer it's a punishment, there is no link between the behaviour and the outcome.

If my toddler broke his toy, the natural consequence is that he no longer has that toy, and I would say oh no it's broken it has to get repaired or recycled depending on what it was. If he broke the toy and got a time out, there isn't a direct link.

So for me, the natural consequence of stealing and fraud is that he has to pay me back, directly so I will give him his pocket money which he will hand back and I will take it off what is owed. Due to the breach of trust on his computer, I can't allow him free access to the computer and the game until he has paid me back.

I have not got angry with him, he was honest and admitted everything when I woke him up and said I think you have something to tell me, I am incredibly disappointed in him and he knows that, and I have explained how long it would take us to earn that money and that it will be impacting the food shop.

But I don't know what if anything else to say to him.

But I don't know what if anything else to say to him.

I don't think you do! Firstly, while it has a big impact on family finances and is a big deal from that point of view, he's only (just) 11 and he probably doesn't have the developmental ability to know that in advance of his actions. IMO it's a more technologically advanced version of stealing a packet of biscuits from the cupboard when everyone else is in bed. We know that money isn't just numbers on a screen, but he probably doesn't realise that yet in the same way. I really think that parental disapproval along with repairing what's happened (by docking pocket money) is enough. I think you're looking for another consequence because your instinct is to punish for a 'major' crime.

My point (badly made I think) is that consequences are often punishment by another name and that if your child understands what they've done wrong, is sincerely contrite and helps to make up for it, then there is no need to fish around for something bigger to make it sink in.

No idea about consequences, but Paypal offer 2 Factor Authentication which might have protected against this ...

www.turnon2fa.com/tutorials/how-to-turn-on-2fa-for-paypal/

(Personally, unless a site offers 2FA, they don't get any account details)

I’ve always made it clear with ds that if he ever stole from me by purchasing things without permission I would sell his things to get the money back.

What a difficult situation 11 years doesnt understand the enormity of whats been done carried away with the rewards of excitement of the game.
You know your child best what do you think will help him understand that what his done should never ever occur again

Take away any technology, no pocket money, no treats as you can't afford them and I would also ground him for a couple of weeks.

With 'consequences' for stealing money I just made them pay it back and addressed the underlying problem. This is pretty close to addiction and impulse control is impaired so id be worried - and the natural consequence of that would be to break the addiction and not let them on it again.

In a few weeks I'd let them on it but completely supervised with limits of time.

My son did this, same age too. Only £8 (for a battle pass) but took my credit card out of my bag to do it. My credit card has a £10k limit so could have been much worse.

My kids don’t get regular pocket money so there was no paying it back that way. His punishment was to miss the end of term disco (which was happening the next day) and do chores instead. I was decorating at the time and the chore was to scrape all the bits of wallpaper that had fallen off and stuck onto the bare floorboards - it wasnt A pleasant job by any means.

He was also banned from fortnite for three months (the duration of the battle pass) so he couldn’t enjoy the fruits of his crime. This meant he couldn’t use his device at all as I didn’t know how to remove it and wasn’t going to spend time faffing around with it.

I also wrote him a letter explaining how I felt being the victim of theft/fraud, the loss of trust etc (copies something similar off the internet and adapted it), explaining that he was above the age of criminal responsibility in England and had committed fraud and theft which was very serious.

I also toyed with getting seeing if the local police might reinforce my message by having ‘a word’ with him, but I stopped short because when I broached that with him he burst into tears and wrote me an impassioned letter about how sorry he was and how he wouldn’t survive in ‘juvey’ . To be honest, if the message didn’t seem to be hitting home I really might have done that, but it seemed way OTT at the time given my sons reaction.

Nothing like it has happen since, but it was only six months ago. I hope he knows better now.

Good luck, it’s horrible when it happens, but you’re not the first to go through it and won’t be the last.

And I disagree with bluesunday and others about grounding. (You're not wrong in any way) - it's just such an endless faff to actually parent the little fuckers when they're grounded.

I used to hate grounding my kids, I only did it when they carried out unsafe behaviours outside the home - running away/refusing to tell me where they were going/being out of phone contact - grounding was then a natural consequence of that behaviour - I can't keep you safe if you refuse to keep yourself safe so you have to stay home

But grounding for other things I try to avoid. If we want them to not play computer games then extra outside activities was the way to go for me rather than them moping round the house trying to go on screens.

I would go the way of monetary consequences. So he has to sell the console/games/other item of value to pay you back and then has to save up his pocket money if he wants to buy a new one.

I would also ground him as in the real world theft can result in a custodial sentence and I would make it clear that what he has done is illegal and if he were older, would result in legal consequences.