do you think all vicars / priests "believe"

[vandrew4]

Just musing that there must be some people in religious positions who have lost their faith but basically carry on pretending as it's their job.
Do you think that's a scenario for may people? Especially if they're one of the relatively rare C of E vicars with accommodation.

I've had lots of conversations with people in religous positions who have loads of doubts. I've listened to a few sermons which have been preached on the theme of the person's personal doubts.

I don't think it's particularly rare, no. People will differ on how much lack/loss/diminishing faith will affect whether they feel they can carry on in their role.

that's interesting to know. Do you think it's in any way dishonest to keep on a position such as that if you don't believe any more? I always think of a large part of church work to be basically recruitment of congregation; seems a bit wrong to encourage others to start participating if they don't believe any more?

The people I'm talking about seemed pretty honest to me - they were very upfront about it. Not really the sort of people to be out evangelising and shouting about their firm and constant faith.

Preaching one thing, living another - yes, that's dishonest and god knows most people do it in lots of little (and big) ways.

We have a good family friend who is a vicar and she is very very openly agnostic but she is an incredibly kind/caring person and I can’t think of anyone I’d want around more in times of stringent

Strife! Not stringent

I think I have met a lot of people who are in leadership positions in church whose understanding of faith is quite different from the traditional 'believe' position.

For example, they may think of God as a force for good, rather than as God in the traditional sense. Many of them also feel strongly that the church has a role in society and so they wouldn't see continuing in that role as hypocritical, as they are part of that role.

I know one minister who had a crisis of faith - he left the church altogether for about a year and went and did missionary work abroad instead.

We moved away after that and I don't know what he's doing now.

Thats intersting lastqueen how does that actually work ?

I think even people who believe don’t necessarily believe 100% of the time. mother Teresa apparently had tremendous crises of faith and crippling doubts but she kept on doing God’s work regardless. And if it turns out not to have been God’s work because there isn’t a god it won’t negate all the good she did.

I am a practicing Catholic, sometimes I have moments of blinding clarity when it all feels real and I believe, sometimes I know I’m just going through the motions. I keep going because the core values of love your neighbour and help other people appeal to me and because the moments of belief are uplifting and worth an amount of boredom and slog.

I don't think it works like Mrs Gaskell's North and South any more -- where the heroine's vicar father has doubts, quits his parish and drags his family off to Manchester to live in genteel poverty because of his Principles.

I'm an Irish Catholic, and feel sure that many priests remained in the priesthood purely because the stigma of being a 'spoilt priest' was at one point so strong. Having said that, the nicest priest we had in my childhood parish turned out to have a longterm partner and children on the opposite side of the city, which no one in the parish knew about till years later. My sister ran into him recently, and he's now married to his partner and a social worker.

And if it turns out not to have been God’s work because there isn’t a god it won’t negate all the good she did.

I take your point, but MT is a poor example. Look up the various Lancet and other reports on Mother Teresa's activities. It's very well-attested that her homes regularly misappropriated funds, evangelised Catholicism to those of other faiths, and offered very poor care did not offer pain relief to the ill, or pursue cures for inmates who had a chance of recovery, because of a focus on the beauty of poverty and the idea of a holy death and baptised the dying.

Links here:

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/25/why-to-many-critics-mother-teresa-is-still-no-saint/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ec858b2ea2aa

I know of two situations directly (not related to each other) involving Anglican vicars both with homes from the church who defected to Catholic and LDS respectively. They both obviously lost their jobs, home and in the LDS case their family too. Obviously they didn't lose faith but certainly for a period they must have been going through the motions to some degree or another, they didn't just change overnight!

I would imagine if someone lost faith entirely it would be easier in some ways to carry on with the status quo, especially if they totally lose all faith (as opposed to some who become too afraid to acknowledge God).

I think when you are in that deep, when your whole life is based around the church, you are unlikely to question it unless there you experience a major event.

It is a bit like the question of whether parents regret having kids. Some probably do but most people don't even entertain the idea. It is not going to make you any happier coming to that conclusion so why even think about it?

Humans believe what is convenient to believe. If you have a life as a priest you are happy with, why disrupt it with those thoughts?

I think if you've been a vicar or priest for a long time, are invested in your parish and parishoners, genuinely feel that you help people and bring them comfort then it must be very difficult to suddenly announce you've stopped believing & that you're off to be a plumber instead.

I think there are probably a fair few who don't believe these days.

Remember Dr David Jenkins, former Archbishop of York? He was always very open about his doubts concerning Christ's resurrection. York Minster got struck by lightning when he took office, which delighted the more literal Christian believers no end.

Do you think some atheists believe?

I'm prepared to think that many people who describe themselves as atheist are actually agnostic. Similarly, belief isn't a constant state but something dynamic that responds to life experiences and learning. Doubt is often a rather entertaining and instructive dinner party guest, but shouldn't really be allowed to sleep over.

Do you think some atheists believe
what an odd question. No, I don't

woulod you be asked to resign ( or whatever the expression is for clergy) if it became public knowledge that you didn't believe?

Faith is a journey, not a destination. All religious people have doubts, that’s the very nature of “faith”.

People who are absolutely certain that they are “right” and that they personally know the will of God make me very nervous.

I disagree with the following:

I always think of a large part of church work to be basically recruitment of congregation

A large part of the work of a minister/priest/rabbi/Iman etc is about serving their congregation and community.

They support families through the key stages of life births, marriages, illness and deaths.

They provide all sorts of counselling, education, advice and help people engage with community and council services.

They support, counsel and visit with the elderly, the sick, young Mums etc.

Help people whose marriage is in crisis, help those who are suffering stress or distress.

They do also evangelise of course but it’s not what they spend their time doing.

Some ministers (etc) will be able to carry on their work through a crisis of faith. Others may take a sabbatical or undertake a different role or further study. Some will leave their church all together.

Most ministers are pretty qualified and work very hard for not very much money. I’m not sure how many stick it out “just for the house” as you suggest when there other options open to them.

Every minister I’ve ever known has preached on the subject of doubt.

No I don't. I have someone I was at school with who has taken holy orders, who upon retirement has said he will probably move to another Christian tradition from the one he is in now.