My dog attacked another and I am heartbroken.

[dogtrouble]

This will be long but please if you don't mind would love some advice and help.
background:
my dog is a 3 year old Romanian rescue, I've had her for two years. Painfully shy and nervous and submissive, terrified of a lot of things, have built her confidence a little however still can't walk her on busy streets etc as just cowers. I had to train her a lot, how to walk on a lead etc
She has been well socialised since the beginning as my mum has three golden retrievers, my sister has a pug and my brother has a cocker spaniel. They all love each other so much and she is much more comfortable with dogs.

My boyfriend's parents have two cocker spaniels. One is 10 and her mother passed away earlier in the year who they also owned, they then got a puppy a few months later. Since the 10 year olds mother passed away she is very "vulnerable" doesn't like other dogs, very snappy, will growl at dog, we spoke about how maybe she feels the need to protect herself now her mother has gone, puppy is cute and playful.
THE STORY
we live in an apartment which my boyfriends parent's own, they decided to do up the bathroom whilst we were away on a weekend break, they looked after my dog. when we got back they said it would be another week until we could return to the apartment and to stay with them about 45 mins from the city, so we did.

my boyfriends parents don't allow their dogs on sofas and beds like I do, and they are only allowed in the main living area and outside. So my dog was outside a lot more than normal and also I wasn't really seeing her much as they preferred the dogs outside. their house, their rules, fine.

I noticed that my dog wasn't really socialising with the two cocker spaniels, she kept trying to go over to the dog bed but walked away. The older dog wouldn't even look at my dog she was licking her lips and sometimes doing a low growl and my dog would come away. It felt very tense between them, and I was on edge constantly watching them. This was different as she is normally cuddling up sleeping with my parents dogs, playing, she is normally very relaxed.
my dog kept trying to go and see the older dog and I would tell her to leave the dog alone as she clearly doesn't like my dog. so she left the dogs on the dog bed and came to lie at my feet.

one morning they were all sleeping and my boyfriends mum came in, my dog walked past the dog bed and the older snapped and snarled and growled at my dog. my dog fought back and was on top of her trying to pin her down they were fighting and I have never heard a noise like it, I ran over and tried to get my dog off but she had locked on to her ear, I was trying to pull my dogs jaw apart to get the ear loose, I was also picking my dog up and she still wouldn't let go, my boyfriends mum opened the door to outside and the older dog managed to run out, my dog was almost foaming at the mouth, I was very shaken up, heart racing, pale and couldn't stop shaking. My boyfriend's mum laughed it off and said like oh goodness! I said wow I got the fright of my life and she could tell I was really upset by it.

I straight away tried to arrange someone else to look after my dog, I don't drive and we were about to head into the city, my ex boyfriend said he would look after her (I was with him when I got her) so I said to currents boyfriend mum I will take my dog in today so they can get a break from each other as they clearly aren't getting on. she said no its fine! we will just keep them separate, in different rooms. which we did when we left. Everyone kept saying it's fine! older dog is just grumpy blah blah, but I knew their fight could have gotten serious and was super nervous about it, I said to my bf they would have hurt eachother, . Looking back I should have put my foot down but everyone made me feel like I was being dramatic and since I wasn't really in control of the situation having to rely on lifts and not my house I just listened to them.

That night I got home from university and the dogs were all in the garden together, and not separated. I was just super nervous, like I said I have never seen my dog act like that ever, and the tension was very heavy.

Skip to Saturday, my boyfriend and I left for work to the city again, and at lunch time I got call from my boyfriend, pretty much same incident except this time was worse and older dog had to get stitches in her lip as was down to the muscle, the dad said he couldn't even see who was hurt there was so much blood. and same situation again couldn't get my dog off and only did when he gave her a kick up the bum. I feel absolutely awful about it, their poor dog! and my poor dog for being pushed to do that! I am so angry I didn't trust my instincts and get her out of there.
I can't stop crying about it and just feel so guilty, their poor dog!! I am upset that nobody else was agreeing that it was a tense situation and we needed them split up, how couldn't they see their dog was so uncomfortable? but anyway I could go over everything again and again. I just want to know what should I do going forward with my dog, now this has happened I do not want this to be a regular reflex for her, like I said she is normally very submissive. We got her out of there that night as soon as we could and she was immediately more relaxed etc, I don't think the dogs had been even sleeping properly since they were in a small room together probably both on edge.
What steps should I take?
My boyfriend's dad thinks my dog was just trying to be the boss, and was telling me tips on how to be the boss, but I know my dog very well she is so submissive she tries to groom me etc, if I go somewhere she looks to me for permission first, she won't even walk through a door unless I do first, there is no way she was trying to be dominant I don't think and I think it came from them both being backed into a corner.
Any advice and moving forward would be helpful.

Right don't be upset, I know it's easier said than done. But dogs are animals and this can happen. It has happened now, you can do things in the future to stop it happening again though, that's the main thing. Your dog isn't nasty! And neither is hers, they were put in an uncomfortable situation..it was inevitable..

Here is some advice that worked for me..
I have two Jack Russell's one is the friendliest dog in the world..the other is constantly on edge, shakes uncontrollably sometimes. I have had him since he was eight weeks old, never ever hit him or out him in an uncomfortable situation. I just couldn't understand why is was always so so stressed..they slept on my bed, sofas etc, I spoilt them rotten! They started fighting, I mean like you describe..I would throw water at them, everything possible to split them up but nothing worked! A day or so later it wpuld happen again..

I got pregnant and knew things had to stop, it wasn't fair on the dogs and obviously I couldn't have any of this with a baby coming into the house, so I got a dog behavioural specialist in to work out what was going wrong.

The answer. Me!
Me spoiling them to me I thought was lovely for them, but it wasn't.
I had had the anxious dog since eight weeks, never been hit like I said. He said to me that it can be the smallest thing that sticks with a dog like his mum throw him out of her bed before I got him, the people might of been loud around then etc..could of been anything.

He knows I love him dearly, and let him do what he wants and so in his head his job 24/7 is to make sure me and him are safe. That's why is so anxious and aggressive all the time. He is petrified someone is going to hurt me or him. It made me so so sad!!

A dog needs his own space, that us crucial!! You thinking your being fab letting your dog on the beds, sofas etc just like me is the biggest mistake!!
Get your dog a crate, a space that is just hers. Your dog will start to relax nearly instantly! Not a dog bed, has to be a crate. They then feel secure and know that is just theirs!

Dogs have to have boundaries, not allowed on your bed, sofa etc..and also dog food. They have to have a top quality dog food. Stuff from supermarkets are full of bad things, which can cause your dog to be more stressed.

I followed all the rules he gave me, and my dog is much more relaxed.

I got shouted at so bad by the dog specialist 😂
Its never the dog, it's the owner. We just think we are giving our dogs a life that we would like, but forgetting their are a dog and want different things to us!

Oh my god longest post ever!! Sorry!
If you want to ask me about anything, just ask 😊

@sunisshining5346
thank you so much for your comment!
wow that makes a lot of sense.
around a month ago I did get her a dog bed and trained her the command "BED" for when I need to her to go lie on it when im busy etc and she also has to sleep there now (there just wasn't enough room with me and my boyfriend) but I will definitely add the crate in as the next step.
We even considered taking her bed to his parents house but were worried she would get protective over it if the other dogs tried to go on it.
Thanks so much for the advice it makes a lot of sense I really appreciate you helping xx
You're right because mine was a rescue and had such a horrible life I feel like I just want her happy but I understand totally what you mean. Thanks Again xx

Yes see the dog behavioural specialist said a normal dogs bed for a anxious dog, is the worst..would you feel safe and secure..nope! A crate, they know nothing can harm them at all..
You have been her saviour in her little life, so from when she first started to realise you were 'safe' she will take on the role of protecting you, from absolutely everything forever. Because if your safe, she is safe..
Imagine being her then, you not being there. In her head you could of been in danger, and she will then attack anything that is a threat because she is so scared your not coming back etc..

It's so so sad, I cried so much over my dog. But I swear these little steps will just add to her feeling a bit more safe xx

Not all dogs like each other, its just the way it is. Your dog was out of her own territory, in a tense situation, in a small space, with a dog that was making it clear she didn't want her around. She reacted. If it was that bad, there would have been a lot more damage. You don't now automatically have an aggressive dog.

Obviously your dog can't stay there again. I would build up their time together, slowly, on neutral ground, I.e take both dogs on lead for a walk. Lots of praise and treats, minimal interaction, then go your separate ways. Let both dogs learn that they can be around each other, but won't be forced to interact.

Op dog fights are really scare and happen so quickly. Unlike us dogs move on really quickly. You've had a massive fright

@sunisshining5346 the part about the saviour makes me want to cry! they love us so much don't they x
do you leave him in his crate when you go out? I'm not out long amount of times never more than 4 hours .

@nesssie thank you. very good advice, bfs dad wanted to introduce them again (holding on to older dog or vice versa) before we took my dog back but bfs mam thought it was too soon, which I agree with, once all recovered I will do all you said, the forced to interact bit is definitely what was adding to the tension so will take your advice, thank you x

@moominfan thank you you have made me feel a lot better x

I agree with Nessie - sounds like they just hate each other and this was too much treading on each others toes. My old dog loved everybody. My family members old dog was also a people pleaser, very friendly, happy chap. But they friggin' loathed each other. Got into a terrible fight, teeth were lost, blood spatter. Awful. Had to keep them apart.

I also agree with Sunisshining5346 a crate might be really good for her, might give her a safe space to chill out so she's not always on high alert trying to do her 'job' and set some boundaries for her.

If you do reintroduce them, they both need to be on lead, so neither feels disadvantaged. But I would give them a bit of time to calm down first.

Personally I'd accept that at some point they're going to have it out and establish the pack order. You can't keep it in a crate all the time. These kind of fights to establish dominance are usually over within seconds.

No idea what a "Romanian" is, but if its an average type dog don't worry about it. A Staffordshire Bull Terrier type breed is a different story, just because of the damage they can do to lesser dogs within seconds.

They're pack animals, not babies. It's what they do. Don't stress about it, no one else in the house seems to be from what you're saying.

Also taking the dog round to the ex boyfriends sounds a bit odd, but each to their own I guess.

A Romanian dog is from Romania.

A rescue near me, buys the dogs cheap, ships them all over sells them for a profit and if they don’t sell, sends them back to be put down when they collect the next shipment. They have lots of support and fawning over by people on the internet, our vets keep reporting them but no success.

Not saying OPs is the same.

OP this isn’t really either of the dogs fault more so the humans who dismisses your concerns.

This is all very sad and upsetting. A Romanian is not a breed - its from the country Romania (OP please correct me if I am wrong)

We had a rottie (now passed away) and she was not good at reading other dogs signals. She was good around people, very relaxed and not one to make a fuss but something changed after 1 year and she didn't like certain other dogs around her. The old softies were ok but any feisty smaller dogs she would turn on them if they started on her.

It was horrible and very disappointing. Of course we took her to a trainer but tbh - I never really trusted her around other dogs and had to shout out to people that although she looked calm and not one to make a fuss she didn't like other dogs. Eventually we accepted that we had what we had. She passed a few years ago now.

We now have a lab - that is a whole different story!

So a dog from Wales is a Welsh? What about if its a Scottish Terrier....doesn't make much sense...

And I agree, the humans are to blame here, but it seems to me its not the ones who have clear boundaries for their animals and understand what canine behaviour is, and don't overreact to trivial scenarios.

Just my opinion though, everyone's got one. ;)

Personally I'd accept that at some point they're going to have it out and establish the pack order. You can't keep it in a crate all the time. These kind of fights to establish dominance are usually over within seconds.

Jesus Christ. Absolutely not. A dominance fight could just as easily lead to death. This is why you should post dog related questions on the doghouse board.

I actually have a Scottie from Wales who lives in England. OP means it’s come from Romania rather than a breed unless you was being sarcastic and I missed it which is a possibility.

@nesssie thanks will definitely keep them on leads too.
I also agree with your comment with not allowing the dominance fight. Before the first incident which she got her ear, I was very much like let the older dog tell her off and she will get the hint, they will sort it out. But when I saw the nastiness, tension and the way she locked on to her ear I said no we can't just leave them to it it will get bad. I am not overly precious about dogs if one needs to snap at one as a warning etc fine, but I would not just be letting them pin each other down foaming at the mouth and tearing chunks out of each other.

I put Romanian just to let everyone know she was a total mixed mutt, she is smaller than the cocker spaniel. and just meant she is from Romania, probably from a long line of mixed breeds so have no clue what she is.

@abbymcmlxxx
I don't know why you are talking to me like I am an absolute idiot but here we are.
I am on very good terms with my ex boyfriend. She knows him very well. I don't have any family less than 200 miles away, since they moved in May. he was my only option for someone to look after her until we could move back to our flat.

Nobody seemed to be from what I was saying UNTIL it got nasty and they saw what I meant.

I have had dogs my whole life, like I said we have three family dogs and there is often 6 dogs in total when we are all visiting at Christmas, I had never seen anything like the two fights so in my opinion wasn't a trivial situation that I overreacted to. one dog got seriously injured and I think would have gone further had there not been humans around both times.

I said above I only put Romanian to give context that she is a mixed breed, I should have just said a mixed breed dog.

I get it... it's a rescue dog from Romania, I think the prose was a bit off. Really it would be helpful to know the type of dog to establish the threat of it getting in a fight, but nevermind.

And saying dog fights could just as easily lead to death is like saying crossing the road could lead to death. Yes it could, but millions of people around the world manage to do it without dying every day, and millions of dogs around the world who aren't treated like children by wishy washy owners fight every day, and funnily enough very few die as a result.

The big issue here is this new age training that seems to be fashionable now for people who don't have the nerve to discipline dogs properly. The dogs are in bed with them, eating at the table and generally having no idea they're actually dogs, least if all who the pack leader is.

The result of this nonsense are dogs who have zero recall, and zero boundaries, meaning their owners can't get them back on the lead when they inevitably let them run amok in the local park. Then they annoy the wrong dog and someone ends up crying because 'Fluffy' gets a hole in her ear.

Dogs are dogs, they don't just go around killing each other for a laugh. I think it's about time some people started to realise their not babies.

Anyway, it's not like I'll get anything but "oh how awful and mean to call a dog a dog" responses on here so I might as well move on.

Good luck :)

@sunglasses123 I think that is the idea that my bf's parents need to have about their older dog. She isn't very tolerant of dogs anymore now she is older and definitely has changed since her mam left poor thing x They got the puppy for company but she doesn't seem that fussed either, luckily the puppy has fell in line to abide by older dogs rules. She is what she is now, so hopefully we will all be mindful on what they can tolerate etc x

My former brother in law had a very unpredictable cocker spaniel. All the family was used to him and accepted/worked round his quirks but with strangers, BIL used to keep the dog in his crate and told visitors especially children that they weren't to go near him. He loved his crate, and in fact my dog has always loved his although we only really use it in the car these days.

The important thing is that you are aware of your dog's behaviour, and you can work around it. Never let anyone else talk you into a situation that you are unhappy with, and tbh I think your in laws sound a bit thick naive here to have allowed the second attack to happen. At the end of the day, your dog is a rescue and you've no idea what they've had happen in their lives. But don't panic, your dog just needs a safe space - then you both will be a lot calmer.

In the day the crate stays in the kitchen and if I go out i just don't lock the door on it so he can come out if he wants to. At night time I just move the crate upstairs so he is still in our bedroom, but in his crate still..

@abbymcmlxxx I already said she is smaller than a cocker spaniel. and probably from a long line of mixed breeds I have no idea what she is, I am not keeping the information hidden, sorry I can't be more specific.

you are obviously projecting some previous experiences here because it's really not making much sense.

I have said she is very well trained, has great recall and is very submissive to me. I am strict with her. Positive re enforcement is what was suggested to me since any thing scary to her (loud noises, strange people) she runs into the corner and violently shakes, but yes when she is that terrified I am going to show her some tough love. like honestly.
Your methods may work with some dogs but I think if you acted that way to dogs who had been horrifically abused in the past, you wouldn't get your desired results.

It took me a long time to build up trust with her, and I tell her off when needs be. I have stated that I am not overly precious with dogs and know they need to be put in their place, there is boundaries and there is the understanding that I am the boss and she follows that.

@lizziebennettdarcy
just ordered a crate I do think she will benefit a lot from this.

I was confused as to why I was the only one trying to be responsible about it and doubted myself its definitely been a huge lesson to me to take control as I agree everyone was a bit naive I saw the change in my dog and the aggression and knew it wasn't right.

thanks for your comment x

@sunisshining5346 perfect that is what I considered doing, just ordered a crate. Thanks x

AbbyMCMLXXX You have very outdated views on dog behaviour and it's bordering on dangerous. Pack and dominance theory has been disproven and no respectable trainer will mention it. Anybody who knows anything about dogs knows that. Plus they also know that 'Romanian dogs' are usually small-medium size mixed breeds.

dogtrouble if you need any training help or advice, post on the doghouse thread as you will get respectable, knowledgeable replies from people that actually know what they are talking about.

After two serious fights it's unlikely they will safely be able to share the same space again, nor should they be expected to.

"Positive reinforcement" as a way of dog training doesn't mean "permissive". There is no reason why you can't have your dog up on the sofa etc (unless they are guarding it).

If you join "Dog Training Advice and Support" on facebook, run by qualified, experienced behaviourists they can advise you, and also explain why you don't need to tell your dog off or be strict with them to achieve desirable behaviour.