What's a polite was to say waffle? (Warning: Please don't open if you believe teachers are god's gift to humankind, you might be offended)

[DaysDragonBy]

I'm meeting with DS's class teacher this afternoon. I need to talk about another of the teachers who basically waffles (my description after meeting her, not DS's). DS has SN and if you want to get through to him, you need to speak in concise bullet points. --> DS hasn't been joining in in class.

I need to point this out. Obviously I can't say "I believe one problem is that your colleague waffles a lot."

So... how do I say it politely?
is effusive with her use of language?

None of the synonyms given in the dictionary are suitable to use in this situation; blather, drivel, prattle, gabble, rattle on however suitable they are to describe the teacher

it will affect DS negatively

WAS that as much of a threat as it sounds, or have I read it incorrectly?

‘Don’t make make a fuss or else’ ?!?

That's exactly the impression I got, the couple of times she repeated it.

and precisely why I'm going in today

‘At home we have had much better progress by breaking down instructions into short, specific sentences. When we used longer versions we really noticed he was less able to cope. Please can we try this in school?’

The thing is you dont know she's waffling in class. That's why I'm saying avoid speculating
E.g. I might say blah blah blah do X, then for those of you with targets of a b c consider that when you do Y, then do Z and if you need to work on d e f think about that. By your definition that's waffling. By my definition that's making links between the current task and prior learning, which is good teaching.

Could ask that instructions are on the board or that DS gets a crib sheet with the tasks on so he can tick them off (I know I tend to have the big question / area of study for the lesson on the board and then a box with numbered bullet points for students to refer back to).

I think you've got a number of issue with this member is staff (and understandably so), but speculating about how they teach and trying to get into telling them how to do their whole class teaching isn't going to get you a resolution.

When trying to get places with schools I do find keeping it factual and focused on the most important things is the best way to get a successful resolution.

(Same principle when staff talk to parents. What's going to get a better outcome: this is the main issue and let's develop strategies to resolve it or and on Thursday your DC did this and then I've hears they did this yesterday and actually whilst I'm on the phone here's another 3 things that I'm not really aware of and are probably sma but I'll raise them anyway because I've got you on the phone, oh and homework is an issue too and we don't think they're sleeping properly at home are they on Instagram til midnight...?)

I'm a teacher. This teacher is being entirely unreasonable in my view. I've had similar student requirements in my class and have made easy adjustments for them. For example, I might have the instructions for the task bullet pointed and printed out for them separately. I set the task for the whole class, then as they're starting I walk round to that student, give them the sheet and reiterate the points on it. I will leave them to digest whilst helping other students, but make a point of going back to them after about 5 minutes to check their understanding and make sure they are on task.

This is my job. It is hard sometimes yes when you have a myriad different issues within one class, but your sons requirements are not difficult to surmount and actually, all teachers should be checking ALL students understanding!

@DaysDragonBy - I know you are asking for a polite way to tell her she's waffling too much, but I wonder whether actually waffle would be the best word in this situation? I don't think it is a rude way of expressing it at all - I think it is friendlier than, for example, saying "Ds can't follow your overly-verbose and complicated instructions".

I think, if you said "Ds struggles to know what he's supposed to do if you waffle" - actually that sounds nicer, and gets the point across without sounding officious.

I would save 'overly verbose and complicated' for if you have to take the matter further - if she refuses to make the necessary adjustments that your child needs, and you want to write to the SENCO and the Headteacher.

Ilovewheelychairs
I agree.
The teacher needs to be putting reasonable steps in to support OP's child.
I do similar things to you. It's why I think the OP is better taking that angle than speculating about whether the teacher uses extra words during whole class teaching (especially when some of it will be for other children).
There are ways to give short step by step instructions to one child without having to bother telling someone how to do their whole class teaching.

I suspect the school are well aware of the weaknesses of this particular teacher, although they will not be able to say that to you and you can't expect them to.

What can the class teacher do? If it were me I would write simple list on an individual whiteboard or specially laminated 'task management board' so your ds can rub them out when he's done. If class teacher can model a good way of managing maybe the other teacher can use it too. Suggest other teacher comes to watch how class teacher does it if you think that would be helpful.
Make sure school leadership are aware of any agreements you have made.

I think it would help ds if x simplified her language, he says he finds her hard to follow

I think this is a good starting point. It's a fine line between getting your point across and slating someone.

My eldest was massively let down by an "outstanding" mainstream school. In the end I had to remove her and find her a place at a special school. I don't care about stigma, I don't care that it complicates things, I don't care that she may never access mainstream education again. I just care that she's being looked after properly and learning stuff that might benefit her in later life rather than fronted bloody adverbials.
In your shoes I would google your local SENDIASS (they're sometimes called something else but should be easy enough to find) and get some help and advice from them.

Many of our SEND children have laminated task boards with First, Next, Then at the top. The teacher gives whole class instructions and then says "For taskboards" and 'chunks' the instruction. The children (or TA if appropriate) write down what to do so they can can understand and the teacher can check they understand. Across our school we probably have 4 or 5 children with SEND in each class, plus a dedicated Year 1-2 class. The task boards are a really easy fix that work surprisingly well - so much so that a number of Non-SEND children ask if they can have one.

As for the waffle thing, I'm afraid I'd say exactly that. Sometimes being blunt is the only way to get through. I know our teachers would prefer it - less ambiguous.

Since you say he potentially chooses not to do the work if she says "please" is it possible you might approach this differently?

Can you ask that she writes the instructions on the board?
This is what happens in my DDs classes from what I've seen. Teachers will do the waffle but bullet point the instructions as they go on the whiteboard I know I'm very out of date here with terminology. Its not specifically for DDs benefit, but it does help her a lot as well as a few of the other pupils too.

The thing is you dont know she's waffling in class. That's why I'm saying avoid speculating
E.g. I might say blah blah blah do X, then for those of you with targets of a b c consider that when you do Y, then do Z and if you need to work on d e f think about that. By your definition that's waffling. By my definition that's making links between the current task and prior learning, which is good teaching.

Ok, I take your point, but they're 7-8 year olds.

DaysDragonBy
They're still capable of listening to instructions and it doesn't mean that you can decide anything about the teacher's class teaching when you're not there.

I get you have issues with the teacher but I'd be staying away from speculative comments about their class teaching.

I'd stop taking in fact sheets to the class teacher
Make a meeting with the SENDCo (possibly a joint one with SENDCo and class teacher) and get agreed strategies specific to your child. E.g. task boards / printed instructions / instructions on the board

If need be then raise it with someone higher, which in surprised you've not done already if it's 2.5 years of a teacher allowing your child to do nothing (which I would imagine is backed up by their exercise books).

If need be then raise it with someone higher, which in surprised you've not done already if it's 2.5 years of a teacher allowing your child to do nothing

I genuinely didn't know. We had no messages home from school. We still got enough objects home every now and again. All meetings have concentrated on the core subjects, reading, maths, writing, etc rather than the non-core subjects like art, music.

So how do you know now then that there's 2.5 years of doing nothing?
Are we talking about all subjects? None? You'll have had assessment data/levels and school reports as well. Books home at the end of the year?

I'm not being awkward, just trying to find the best way for you to address this with school to get a positive resolution.

*Some not none.

So how do you know now then that there's 2.5 years of doing nothing?

It's the art teacher. I asked her outright. We get "art" home every now and again. No books, just a cross on the report card at the end of the year, no text.

Have you spoken to the schools SENCO? In my sons EHCP it states that he needs to be spoken to in short, direct sentences.

Right. That makes a bit more sense.

Are you in a primary with specialist teaching in ks2?
I only ask because if it's one member of staff teaching art then I wonder if they are the school's PPA cover rather than a class teacher. Some schools employ a teacher as PPA cover and they'll deliver art/music/PE to multiple classes over the week so the class teacher has their PPA.

Are you in a primary with specialist teaching in ks2?

I'm not sure what that means.
There is a designated music teacher. She teaches all the classes music and teaches DS's class every other Friday. Stands in for DS's class teacher or for his TA when either is away and timetable allows.

Art teacher - teaches all the classes art and is DD's class teacher on Fridays.

Class teachers take their classes for PE.

I agree with Maisy that you need to focus on the outcomes. Factsheets aren't good and come across badly.

Don't insult her style, focus on what suits your ds best. The instructions suggestion is good, she can do her speil then give a short summary which your ds can focus on and follow.

I am questioning how after 2.5 years and some art being produced that he has done nothing.

Is it really a huge problem if he isn't doing much in a primary art class, as long as he is ok in core subjects?

Some schools (usually prep) will have English taught by an English teacher, maths by a maths teacher.

It sounds like the music and art are PPA covers for class teachers.

If/when you see the SENDCo, it might be worth seeing if the meeting could be attended by you, the SENDCo, your DS's class teacher and the art teacher. Have a list of things the class teacher does that work well, plus some of the suggestions that a few of us have mentioned here. I still recommend avoiding speculative discussions about what she does/doesn't say because I don't think that ever helps get a resolution. Go in with a view of consistent strategies to help your DS and the word consistency is probably a good one to use.
Then I'd get an agreement (which you can follow up by email) that if there are any issues or queries or concerns that you'd like the art teacher to contact you asap so you can all support DS.

How is your ds getting on in his other subjects? He’s Yr 3? My Ds is in the same year and I genuinely don’t know whether he has a specific art class and if I’d be bothered about him not getting much out of it.

I’d be much more concerned if it was his class teacher who was refusing to adjust to his learning needs. Is this the case or is this just symptomatic of how the school generally approach your ds?