Wincing at my brother "dramatically" telling off his children

[letsgomaths]

Recently I saw my brother and his daughters; always a pleasure for us, I only see them occasionally because we live far apart. We're close in age, but we have very different temperaments: I'm an introvert and used to be a people-pleaser, he's very loud and thrives on drama; nothing there has changed since we were children. For full disclosure I am not a parent (so I expect his methods are none of my business), also he had the children on his own that day as their mum was at work, so he was probably a bit stressed. Also, although we have a good relationship as adults, we squabbled a lot as children; each of us would always want to be "right".

I know, the usual MN spiel, I only saw a snapshot, maybe things were more fraught than usual because it was half term. But here it is, and I've seen similar on other visits: while I was there, it sounded as if he was constantly nagging them, putting them in their place every few minutes, always using a special "telling off" voice. He'd interrupt a conversation with "Come on, eat up, letsgomaths has almost finished." When one of the children (aged 4) moaned about being cold, his reply was "Are you whining? Do you live in Whinesville? Is your name Princess Whine of the kingdom of Whinedom??", his voice rising to a crescendo. I suppose it's meant to be good-natured, but it's very "dramatic" in my view, far more than the original whine from the child. I couldn't help wondering if the children play up to it, because his replies are so dramatic. A few times during the day, I was thinking "I'm glad he's not my dad", because as a child I hated sarcastic replies. The children seem to forget each telling-off after a few minutes, but I remember being silent and upset for a long time if I was told off, especially if I thought it was unfair.

At one point, when one of the children was about to go outside, I said "no, daddy told you not do". My brother said (grandly and dramatically) "thank you for backing me up, I wish our parents would!". Fair enough.

When one of the children spilt some bubble mix in the living room, he really lost his temper, shouted at her and made her cry, then stormed upstairs to fetch clothes for her, slamming doors as he went. He did apologise to her a few minutes later; I kept very quiet but I was reminded of our dad doing exactly the same thing, and how much I feared scenes like this at home.

And near the end of my visit, he and I were chatting about old films, and one of us said "that one's awful". One of the children (aged 6)chipped in with "What's awful?" My brother then snapped "Can't I just have a conversation for once, without you butting in????" He sounded so angry about this, and I was so stunned and shocked that I couldn't continue the conversation. I didn't say anything because I didn't want to undermine him, but I thought that was deeply unfair to the child; and again, I remembered being unexpectedly told off like that at the same age. I ended up staying longer than planned because I didn't want to leave on that note.

Again, all this may be none of my business; maybe it says more about me than about him, he might just be "louder" than I am, it's their way of doing things, and as a non-parent I'm probably in no position to criticise his methods. However, I found this really painful to watch. I have a vivid memory of my own childhood, and I remember really hating being told off, fearing being shouted at, especially unexpectedly, as with his daughter asking "what's awful?". Yes, perhaps I just felt differently about it from him; perhaps he thrives on "conflict" while I really don't like it at all. Although I think our parents got most things right, I remember some really heated shouting matches, which would always put the fear of God into me because they sometimes ended in me being smacked.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the reason I care so much about this is because I feel that history might repeat itself, before my very eyes (apart from the smacking, as far as I know he draws the line at that). I don't want to interfere, but right now I'm really wanting to tell him a cautionary tale about me: as a child, teenager, and even a young adult, I often did not ask for help when I really needed it, because I was afraid of our parents' reaction, and I remember encouraging him to keep his mouth shut if we were in on something together. If I broke something while their backs were turned, I would never own up to it; I would lie, hide the evidence, try to blame my brother, etc. As a teenager, if I got into trouble at school over homework, I'd lie to cover it up, to the extent of forging my mum's signature on detention paperwork, because I didn't want to tell her about it. (Result: I got into far more trouble later.) As a young adult, I never told my parents what I was doing until my projects were well-established, in case they had a bad reaction. It's only later that I realised that owning up to mistakes straight away is valued by many people.

Seeing him really losing it with his daughter about the bubble mix incident made me wonder: in a few years' time, will she dare to ask for help if she needs it? If one of the children accidentally lets the puppy out of the front door, will they own up to it, or will they pretend nothing happened, as I used to? My parents never did have the conversation "always tell us if something goes wrong: we might be cross at first, but we'd much rather you told us", or "lying is far worse than the original crime". My dad said that he grew up in a family full of conflict; he only learned to be calmer long after my brother and I grew up.

I’m really hoping he was having a bad day, because to me those yangs he said and did sound very harsh. I’d have to be having a really shitty time to speak to my kids with so little respect, and I’m not a supermum.
I am sensitive in the way that you sound op, and I know that sort of thing is unsettling to be around. Your plan to see them more sounds great.

Sounds similar to my mother tbh. It really effected me as an adult. I did go total opposite with mine and some might say im a little to relaxed and not hard enough on them but i prefer to talk to them than shout or mock them.
I think its working for me. I am winning the battles that matter.

I think I understand the tone OP and it's not okay. It sounds dominating and belittling as well as a complete performance. Not sure what you can do about it other than cultivate a relationship with the children and babysit. Is he like this with his partner? How does she parent? Do you spend any time with just her and the children?

I would never behave like this as a parent (before I had children). Now, on my worst days I am like this. Although I, like your brother, apologise when I get things wrong. I am mostly a kind, gentle parent who gives lots of love and affection.

Being at a family members house without my DP at the end of a school would be definitely potential for being in the parenting danger zone.

Definitely be a kind auntie but also see how you can give your DB and SIL a break. I’m a different person when I’ve had a break from the kids and far more patient.

I agree with thr OP. I also agree with a pp who says that if you are parented like this you either reproduce it or go in the opposite way.

Both me and dh had this sort of negative parenting. Dh is replicating it, while I am very sensitive to it and never would consciously talk to my child in such as way.

I have had many conversations with dh about appropriate ways to speak dd (and me). But it never lasts. It is very tricky thing to navigate (dh gets worse with criticism - classic passive aggressive which I swear is a result of the way his dad spoke to him when he was younger).

If I were in your shoes, I would try to involve myself more in your nieces' lives and model healthy interactions. That is one thing I never had and think could have helped. Yes. I recognise that I am fucked up after constant negativity in many guises as a child.

You are right to be concerned, but unfortunately limited in what you can do.

Tricky but I would agree to try to foster open relationships with the children. Maybe try to FaceTime them regularly as you live some distance. Be a constant in their lives and make sure when they get older they have your phone number. There is a limit to how much you can do at a distance and this might be the far extreme of his behaviour and they might not react in the same way that you did.

Regular facetime or phone calls is a good shout.

It is awfully easy to judge from a snapshot though, and to label parents harsh, or ineffective, or helicoptering, or ignoring their kids when they are just muddling through like everyone else and you've caught them on a bad day. Most parents are "guilty" of some or all of those, at least some of the time.

You learn as you go along too. We are much softer, more sympathetic parents now to our 9 and 11 year olds than I ever expected we'd be, and I think the eldest still feels we are far too harsh on her. But I was very much stricter when they were little.

Some people get very stressed about how their children behave in front of visitors - even family. I used to be a bit like that myself though I didn't shout or anything like that, but I felt it inside and kids pick up on stress. When I got to know others with children and had different kids at my house playing with mine, it stopped. I relaxed.

There's not much you can do about it except, perhaps, say - mildly, in a friendly fashion - that they are good kids, their behaviour is normal and he should chill.

(HidingfromDD, I like your above post and identify with some of it)

It sounds potentially very shaming.....overly critical parenting isn't a great fit with helping kids develop high self esteem and an openness to 'failing'....
However, he might feel very critisised if you raise it- you'd have to be very sensitive

how do the children react around him? Do they seem scared of him? I am probably projecting my own issues a bit here, because I was a sensitive child too, and tended to be crushed at the slightest bit of sarcasm or harsh parenting. However, there were times when my father really was abusive in the classic sense of the word, so for me, it is difficult to know what i snormal and what isn't. Some things I told myslef were just me being oversensitive and "dramatic" about, my therapist recently told me were things that were really damaging, but I had been gaslighted (gaslit?) into believing I was being stupid- my dad told me that a lot. I was scared of him- he could go from nice to very nasty and even violent in 60 seconds- and often could be very belittling with his words, making me and my sibling feel small.

None of what you are describing here seems as extreme as that, but I certianly relate a lot to the effect it has had on you- I think it is likely your brother has no idea that his children may be feeling belittled. I say "MAY" because I do not know for sure. Just throwing that out there.

Like I said, though, I do not have a "normal" frame of reference for childhood- there was a lot of heavy emotional and verbal abuse in our home as well as occasional domesic violence and my father's moods were of the "mental illness" type (undiagnosed- he did not believe in Psychiatry), but I will say that I found some of the "minor" incidents of verbal put downs have in some ways had a worse effect on me than the rest. I find I have to prove to others, to myself, to the world, that I am worth something, and feel I am apologising for my existence in many ways. I do not know who I really am.

hettie yeah, this is what stands out to me in the OP- the shaming. I would have wanted to sink through the floor even if nobody else witnessed it, even more so if I had my aunt there in the room.

Thanks again all - your replies have made me feel more balanced, I'm feeling calmer about the whole thing, and glad I haven't said anything so far. I do intend to keep in touch regularly. I tried to think a lot about other visits I had made before, and perhaps there was just more telling off this time because of the circumstances. His wife seems to be gentler than he is, but I don't know her that well. The older child certainly doesn't seem to be scared of anything; the younger one "Princess Whine" is more reserved and likes to make up her mind about people, including me, but usually relaxes after a while.

@Rebecca36 I too remember my parents being more tense around certain visitors, such as a particular very posh (and childfree) great aunt. It was also very tense indeed if we had au pair's parents over - lots of warnings beforehand, and "don't you dare embarrass us" vibes.