Childrens academic abilities, natural or as a result of parents input?

[peppersneezes000]

Following on from a thread on primary education where a poster was in disbelief her y1 daughter was in the bottom sets in comparison to her peers.
As the thread developed it transpired that the top set were getting tutoring & lots of parental help & extension work at home.
She didn't want to do this as child is only 6.
What's the general consensus on mn regarding an academic child. Imho I feel a certain amount of parental pushiness is necessary even if the child is self motivated. In my DC's school most parents seem to be extremely engaged & clued in, our school isn't a leafy middle class school & would have parents & kids from all backgrounds...

In my house we have three kids - all with the same parents - ranging from spectacularly academically successful to C-average and struggling with school.

The only one receiving any tutoring is the C-average kid.

Go figure.

Reading doesn't always help spelling and grammar.

It's not a given. Brilliant post glacifourus.

Pop basically sounds like you had to help your son in a shit school.

Interesting reading as I do feel myself that parental input is vital. I'm not quite convinced about parents own education. In my childs school the top achievers are eastern european or Asian, parents don't speak much english but are very hardworking, one mum I've become friendly with works 3 jobs, cleaning, childminding & in a chipper & she values education so much. Her daughter is flying as are many others with english as an additional language...

Totally agree with Glaciferous. The best favour you can do your children is to talk to them about things in a way which gets them thinking. One of my biggest grievances with the education system at the moment is that we don't teach pupils to think around subjects or problem solve except in very rudimentary ways and then are amazed when children roll off the end of the production line unable to think for themselves or actually use the knowledge they have.

Obviously when they are small you help them with numbers and reading and it is important to ensure your DC are solid on both fairly early on, but after that it is more important to develop critical thinking abilities.

ExH and I both have first class degrees so possibly a certain amount of genetics, but I think the most useful thing I have passed on is discussing and challenging things around us together with the importance of working hard but smart and sticking at things. That and a healthy scepticism of anything you read in the press and awareness of bias...

its undoubtedly mainly genetic. genetic academic ability is the biggest single indicator of academic achievement, there is no dispute about that.

however, parental input influences how close children come to achieving their full potential, academically.

Schools influence is way behind those first two

I wouldn't say it is the most important thing that parents influence though.

Learning how to be a kind, productive, happy, fulfilled individual comes largely from parents, and this is so much more important.

I think that those that are pushed and tutored to within an inch of their lives will only be able to reach a certain level. Say they're a B across the board child at GCSE, without the tutoring they have made a C across the board whereas the really really bright kids get the A's regardless.

I know at school I did f all and walked away with A's across the board. However i distinctly lacked motivation and dropped out of uni.

He's coming on well in reading because he's been supported with coloured tints, glasses and exercise books for school.

what do you mean by coloured tints? I hope you are not buying into that whole irlen syndrome con. Its just a company out to make money, thats all. reducing visual stress is important, but please don't get conned by that company into thinking this needs to be specific colours, or assessed by expensive experts, or any of that.

Likely both - genetic from the mother imo . If it can't be accessed at school some tutoring for 11+ etc likely to be helpful - tbh if any of us were sitting an exam some practice beforehand would be beneficial , exam success is as much about technique as knowledge . However all kids are good at something and that may not be academia - it's about your child being in the right environment for them and there's a fine line between a bit of tutoring / help to get somewhere and a continuous slog - being inherently lazy I'd rather be a bright child in a less academic environment than kind of bottom of the class and struggling in a highly driven one - it's down to parents generally to work out where their child truly falls and go with it ' not push a kid relentlessly to make up for their own perceived lack of ambition or achievements '

There's lots of factors at play here...

In my experience, my sister and I had alot of input from our mum. Alot more from our grandparents actually as mum was working alot.

Grandparents paid for music lessons, encouraged us with homework, encouraged us to take pride in trying our best. Just lots of guidance and encouragement. I feel that without this I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did.

However, I didn't start flying until Year 5 when I finally had a teacher who understood me, made me feel valued and really took the time to explain things to me. I was a musician, he was a musician. He understood me so well.

There are lots of factors to consider.

I've found it all averages out as they get further into education. You can push a child on at the age of 6 but in general by the time they leave primary their natural abilities (given no learning disabilities) have them generally at a level they should be. The 'what book level' sneaky peeks always made me laugh because you can push your child on but in the end it makes no difference than a bit of playground bragging when they were small.

I've just tried to instil a love of learning into mine, respect for teachers and then I've been really interested in any work they brought home. Much more valuable than coaching and lasts a lifetime not just the period you are pushing learning into their lovely little heads. Push too hard now and they'll start pushing back at some point!

It worked for us by the way, I've got three lovely sons enjoying school (uni) and doing well academically without pushing. You can't coach then past a certain point, I've had to concede to not knowing the most about anything anymore - damn you A levels!

I think it helps to think of it like height. A child's adult height is mostly inherited but the child could be taller or shorter than parents just by the luck of genetics. A poor environment (illness / lack of food etc) could make a child shorter (think of the middle ages). But a fabulous environment isn't necessarily going to make a child taller. So as long as the environment is good enough to support growth, then the child can grow how they will.

This may not be a perfect analogy, but I think it helps capture the idea that both genetics and parental input can have a role.

Assuming no learning difficulties (I have 2 with dyslexia) Then I think it is a mixture of good teaching supportive parents and additional aid. All of mine have received tutoring at some point for different reasons. DD1 got it as she on moving schools at year 5 was marked out to not be good with her phonics.. She struggled through primary school wasnt great in 2ndary until around GCSE and A levels where something clicked for her she is now in university and is on target for a 2.1 with a first as a possibility amazing achievement for the girl who threw up from nerves the day before her SATS. IQ wise she is bright but nothing special in anyway perhaps upper midrange. With her its all natural ability with a bit of a push from parents here and there.

DD2 hugely intelligent commented on by teachers many times over the years. SERIOUSLY dyslexic really struggle and it has not been until GCSE/A levels she received any aid for this... She is not fully reaching her potential due to the dyslexia and the way we measure potential. However she is resitting her Psychology A level as her teacher encouraged her to go for an A said she 100% has it in her. (She is currently in year 14) Teacher is amazing and so supportive.
DD received a lot of tutoring from year 4 until about 8 with regards to her dyslexia IMO money well spent as she never disliked school. For her it has 100% had to do with parental input and tutoring (so teachers) as despite a lot of natural ability her dyslexia keeps her back.

DS clever lad went to grammar school passing the 11+ (we live in a grammar school council) has always floated through schooling just doing enough to remain in top sets until year 8/9 where he got very sick with a kidney thing and only had a 78% school attendance that year. Suddenly he had to work to get the grades he had always managed just by paying attention in class and the minimum homework. He received tutoring in year 4/5 as he was incredibly bored in school. It was one of the teachers from his primary school who did it and it resulted in ds and 3 of his friends actually ended up in the year above to stretch them.. The school really dealt with that well. DS is likely the one of my children who will go the furthest as he has a decent work ethic is ambitious and SO sociable he loves people and gets on with everyone.. A real social butterfly this combined with a natural ability to learn and despite my feeling he would not have as high a IQ as his sisters either side of him because it is so natural to him and no learning issues its very easy for him.
For him it is all natural ability (With a bit of a push from mum and dad here and there

Then there is DD3.. of all of my children I think she is the one with the highest IQ.. (many teachers over the years have commented on this) She is also a complete introvert and the most stubborn person you have ever come across in your life. IF dd3 does not want to engage with something she does NOT engage. Add to that dyslexia (Though no where near as bad as dd2) and her engagement with English being in minus figures.. However she is now in year 10 Wishes to take Math Further Math and Physics for A level .. (Says if she doesn't get enough for further Math she will settle for Chemistry! ) & teachers in the relevant subjects are all saying she is capable.. Because she is engaged with this. Of all of my children dd3 is the one who have had the most tutoring due to this lack of engagement and this meaning she was not achieving what she needed in English. In primary school the SENCO was awful and adamant she was on the autistic spectrum. We ended up agreeing to assessment (despite my feeling this was not the case) and got a diagnosis of "social shyness" the report outright stating that the specialist saw no indicators of autism in her. A recommendation to not hold her back in math due to her lack of English skills has also helped and has over the years slowly got some engagement with DD3 for English simply because she wants to understand her math problems. She is the one of my 3 who I feel will either one day do something amazing Like find a cure for some hereditary sickness OR she will float through life just making enough to get food on her table never really engaging with anything or anyone... She is all natural ability in the subjects she is engaged with and completely parental input/tutoring/teachers in the subjects she is not engaged with..

Overall.. I would say it is a mixture of both However I do not think it has to be the parental encouragement that makes it that encouragement can come from elsewhere. DS has a close friend who has little encouragement at home. His parents are not that bothered about schooling (nice people don't get me wrong I know both and speak to both if I meet them down town but both have expressed to me they do not really see much point in further learning/past basic schooling) Kid in question however got supported by teachers and a TA and actually obtained a scholarship to Chris Hospital school. He has flourished and is in 6th form now doing well With him he says himself had he not had teachers supporting him he would likely have dropped out of school by now. Sadly his little brother did not take to the support from teachers as well and is in year 10 currently on 4th school having been thrown out of the last 3.. Shame as like his older brother he is a clever lad who could go far.

Great post Glaciferous.

I’ve wondered this. My eldest 3 dc weren’t keen to learn to read and actively resisted school reading books in reception, so I left them when dc were resisting and they only read 2-3 times a week as I didn’t want them to hate reading. I did wonder if this was doing them a disservice though. Dc3 needed phonics booster sessions in year 1 and I did feel responsible! Now in year 2 it has clicked and he loves reading for pleasure and is on target.
Dc4 was always keen to read, so got more parental input and learnt quicker.
All 4 are in top sets for everything now.
I definitely believe in having the type of conversations glaciferous describes, and all 4 are good at problem solving and formulating and expressing opinions.

I would also agree that its a bit of both but mostly genetic, I’m not academic did ok but am the most practical out of both of us, but my dh is extremely clever and did really well in his exams but lacks common sense at times.

Our dd who’s nearly 16 seems to of got the best of both of us, shes very clever expected to get good grades fingers crossed, but is also very sensible.

When she was little I read to her alot and she enjoyed the 1:1 with me as her older brother has sn and took up alot of my time, so when we dropped him off at school we would come back home and she would choose some books for me to read to her and we would discuss what was in the pictures.

When she went to nursery she started to recognise words from books we had read, then in reception they were amazed that she could actually read quite well, fast forward to secondary school English is her favourite subject and finds enjoyable and is on target to do well hopefully.

But I do think ultimately the hunger to learn was from her dad but the encouragement to pursue what she enjoys came from me.

I believe it is inherent ability cultivated by a supportive environment. Not amount of tutoring is going to make a child of average intellect a genius and a complete lack of pushiness will make a genius stupid. Parents can only help children reach their full potential. They can't increase potential.

*will not make a genius stupid

I think it's a mixture.

I think everyone has a ceiling (I'll never be a linguist for example) which is nature, but whether you get to your ceiling and when you get there depends on nurture.

I do think that sometimes people assume if a child is doing well that they're being pushed. Dd1 is bright and very well motivated and I was asked a couple of times who was tutoring her, and I've certainly heard parents comment that a child "must be having tutoring" because they're doing well.

I actually think tutoring might not be the most effective route for increasing academic potential. It will almost certainly increase attainment (unless there is some kind of underlying problem that isn't going to be fixed by practising) but it won't increase the child's faith in their own abilities, which is really important. People who believe they can work things out for themselves are surely much more likely to persevere with this approach and much more likely to come up with an answer than those who think that what you do if you need extra help is approach an outside source.

Every time you work something out for yourself you give your brain a workout and improve your reasoning ability. I am really at pains when DD has homework she doesn't understand immediately to ask her leading questions that will hopefully lead her to working out what to do herself rather than tell her how to do it. Telling her how to do it would be much quicker, but I don't believe it's as beneficial in the long run.

I think it’s a bit of both.
Many kids have tutors , they just don’t let people know

We knew someone who did this, always on child's back, making them redo homework, so they got top marks, did their course work with them, the child's mocks were bad, the exams even worse. Child had to admit most of school work all her life had been done by the mum...
The mum went in and ranted at teachers who told the mum it was her own fault she made her child Hate school work.

If you've a good brain, you'll do well. If you work hard, you'll do well. If you have a good brain and work hard ( ^and are tutored!) you'll be unbeatable.

Are a couple of athletes more or less likely to have athletic children than non athletes? Yes. Genetics.
Are those children likely to succeed in their athletic endeavours? Yes if their parents encourage them to train, choose the right clubs for them, network with the coaches and ensure they take any opportunities out there.

It’s the same for any other talents in life. He apple does not fall far from the tree.

I am naturally academic, have a high IQ and achieved exceptional A Level results (as in, the top English Lit result in the country, As across the board, distinction in extention modules).

I was never tutored either by my parents or externally. I just grew up with two parents with multiple degrees (my mum was interviewed for Cambridge at 16, my dad achieved in the national top 50 of A level results), and tastes in literature and culture that pre-loaded me with so much information that I didn't need to go and read Greek mythology to understand references in poems, or stumble over Latin origin terminology in science or historical contexts.

Genetics are the top determinant of intelligence and mental acuity. Environment allows the expression of that natural ability. Personal dispositions and learned behaviours emotionally then affect what a person 'makes of' their abilities.

Rank each of genetics, environment and disposition 1-5 and tot it up out of 15. A genetic 5 could still turn out to be a 7 if their environment and dispositions aren't enough to make anything of it (your classic 'Mongolian shepherd with no resources and no emotional inclination to learn' example).