friend being very unsympathetic... wwyd?

[CoffeeandNumbers]

Hello,
Not sure how to get this all out in one blob. Hope it makes sense, and sorry for typos am on phone. Also hope this doesn't out me.

19 months ago I had a very upsetting birth with dd, back to back, long drawn out, dd was distressed and ending in forceps. I had planned to bf but didn't produce any milk at all. This added to the distress and feelings of failure.
The first few months of her life were awful. I had flashback type nightmares, and a few panic attacks, it was rubbish. Didn't feel any connection until about 5 months old. I feel crap about this now.

3 weeks ago went out for afternoon tea with two friends, we will call them A and B. A announced her pregnancy to B (I had found out a week earlier) so talk turned to birth and babies.
I said to them about needing to lose weight, as I'd like a section next time, after what had happened previously. I hadn't really explained how bad things were, wrt panic attacks/nightmares to friend A, but had explained a bit to B.
B then say that "childbirth is not that bad" "c sections are for the weak" "low pain thresholds"
At this point I started to fill up with tears and said that no it was horrific, and would rather spend time in intensive care again, let's change the subject. (Contracted sepsis a few years ago, had a week in ITU)
B just would not let it drop, she carried on saying about how sections are the easy way out. I ended up in floods of tears, and she walked away for a few minutes.
Poor A tried to console me, I was trying to tell her not to worry, as most babies are the right way around and don't need forceps.
B came back and sat down, halfheartedly said sorry and we all carried on like nothing happened. I held it together until I got home and cried and cried for hours.

The only positive is that I've realised even though i no longer have nightmares/panic attacks, I still have shakey episodes and need to speak to someone, and have started seeing a counsellor once a week, who thinks I have PTSD.

So I have been friends with B for many years, since primary school. But I am so bloody angry, even now 3 weeks on, that I just don't know what to do. She has sent me a few texts, asking about crap on TV, to which I have not replied. She text yesterday asking "are you upset with me about something?"
I feel like responding "Yes you fucking unsympathetic cunt" but I just dunno of I can deal with all that drama atm. (My nan is serious ill, I went to say goodbye today, as she is likely to die tonight.)

Basically, wwyd if you had told a good friend something was very upsetting, and they said "meh" ?

I didn't want to read and run.

I'm so sorry that you had a difficult birth, and I think PTSD counselling is absolutely the right thing.

Your friend is being a shit head. Regardless of her feelings about birth (has she even been through it?) she should be supportive of your feelings about your experience.

The only explanation for her behaviour I can think of is that she was trying to protect friend A from worrying that she might have a traumatic birth after hearing your story. That's the only reason I would think any decent person would try to minimise your experience.

She's not your good friend. I wouldn't trust her again. She literally made you cry and didn't properly apologise. Surely when she got home she must have realise - omg what if she had a really bad birth, I was so rude, I need to apologise properly to her, omg! But she didn't. That is so heartless.

You've got more important things going on than her right now. Sorry about your grandma.

I would not have anything to do with her in future. You cannot bring someone to tears by needling them (about something painful and scary that happened to them in hospital!!!!) and still be their friend. Not without saying sorry properly. You can try telling her how much she upset you and see if she'll realise how cruel she was and apologise. But if you decide to do that, wait until things are quieter.

I think B may have been trying to protect A from being frightened by your birth story.

I don't think it's appropriate to talk about how bad your experience was at someone else's announcement.

Sorry.

Has B ever actually given birth???

The most positive spin I can put on it is that she was trying not to worry A (assuming it's her first time pregnant)

Sorry you had such a shit time

I was in a very similar situation though maybe not half as traumatic as you. Ended up with emergency section and a very close friend text me to call in to the hospital to visit. I got my husband to phone her and explain. She then rang my mother to find out the details and text me that all women are sore and I don't know what got into me but I realised there and then that she wasn't a friend. When I sat back and thought about it all, she spoilt a lot of good things or added a string to every comment. When I passed my Masters she said I had nothing else in my life so that's why I did well. She failed hers years before and I would never bring it up... She's done a lot more and 'ding' I realised I needed fewer people but better quality around me.

I don't know why I am spilling all this out but do you need friends who do this. Don't listen to me though, I am a bit ruthless like that.

All that said, maybe you need help to cope with your trauma at birth so please, please do that. Xx

Thank you responding everyone

No B has never given birth. Which is annoying. More annoying is that she never will have to give birth vaginally, as she had a problem with her bum a few years ago, so now has to have a section if she ever gets pregnant. (I freely admit I am jealous! To have the decision made for me like that I mean.)

Yes it is A's first baby.

Rainbow, I did not bring it up. I just made a comment that I'd like a section if I did have another. It was then B started pushing with her views. I hadn't mentioned forceps or any of that, I tried to change the subject to protect A. But B kept banging on about how its not that bad.
I would never rain on A's parade, I am very happy for her. I am so pissed off with myself that I could not control my crying in front of her, and ending up spoiling a lovely afternoon. I didn't want to tell her any of how bad its been for me. The main reason I haven't told many of my friends about the nightmares etc. is that I am the first to have a baby out of my little circle, and don't want to upset them.

Rina...thank you. Its been a long illness and its expected, its still shit to say good bye

B is clearly completely clueless about giving birth and appears to have had an empathy bypass on this particular issue. Is she prone to making i'm-am-expert statements about things she knows absolutely nothing about?

As she's such an old friend, I think she probably thinks she can give her tuppence worth on any subject and no one will think too much of it. What she hasn't realised is how traumatic your experience is. I do think it's often hard to understand these things pre children. I would not let it affect the friendship but you could ring to explain. How your birth and the after math were genuinely traumatic and you think her view on c section was insensitive.

I think you are very naive my love if you think c sections are easier than vaginal births .

C sections may be easier at the time - but the recovery is painful drawn out and lengthy.

Mobilising is painful and slow after a section. Going to the loo is an awful experience. You have to have a catheter. You feel like you have been gashed with a meat cleaver - sorry tmi - but please don't ever be jealous of anyone for having a section.

So B claims that sections are for the weak, but will have to have a section herself if she has children?

It really does sound as if she was trying to protect A, however the conversation came about.

She sounds awful.

I would just tell her flat out that you're really upset by her comments and having never had a traumatic birth, she has no idea.

Coffee - just to add I had PTSD after one of births - I saw the gynae counseller once because she gave me what I needed - a reality check.

Told me that in essence I had to start living in the present - accepting the grief that I went through and move forward - that yes I had a horrendous time but that in the here and now everything is ok and I have healthy happy child . I never needed to go back ( even though I went on to have a horrific time with DC2).

We only really have the here and now.

Sometimes we add to our suffering because we let our minds relive unhappy experiences that we have no control over.

One tip I would pass on is to try to avoid conversations around "birth stories" ... 10 years after my DDs birth and I still avoid such conversations.

When you have had a traumatic birth to hear other women talk about plans for blissful water births with melodic music in the background - it can trigger some very deep seated emotions .

OP let them have their "opinions" - you know as we all do that as soon as their babies come along everything they thought or planned about birth/ motherhood will be entirely different in reality!

Next time just sit with your coffee nod and smile at what they don't know is coming .

It sounds like B has her own issues surrounding birth and cesarean which isn't surprising if she has a condition which means vaginal birth will not be an option to you. I understand that due to your horrific birth experience that sounds like a great option to you but she may not feel that way - many people would prefer to have a vaginal delivery and she may feel upset the choice has been taken out of her hands.

To be honest with regards to that I would say all of you sound somewhat unsympathetic to each other's needs. Yes it was not very unsympathetic of B to speak so badly of c-sections but perhaps it was unsympathetic of you to B to not take into account that she will not have a choice about how to deliver her baby in the future. Certainly I feel sorry for A having to hear about your horrific birth as well, although appreciate you may not have meant to bring it up or worry her.

But really it doesn't sound like any of you are that close or understanding of each other?

Although I do think you need to explain to B why you were so upset & see if you can work it out (if you want to), I'm siding with the PPs who say she was trying to protect A against a traumatic birth story. Maybe A had already expressed some 'nerves' about childbirth that you aren't aware of. After all, if B will have to have a CS I wouldn't think she'd bang on about them being the 'easy way out' or 'low pain' or any of that shite. I really don't think she'd be putting it down if it's how she, herself, will be birthing her children.

Although at this point I don't think you should necessarily confide in A, you may want to let your friends know a little of what you're going through so that they can support you.

And I will also second the gentle hint about birth stories. It seems as if every old auntie in my family had a horror story to tell us poor cousins! It's a wonder any of us ever had children!

Blessed .... how you described cs sounds no different to my experience of forceps birth. I had a catheter, I felt butchered, the recovery was weeks physically etc (mentally I don't know if I can ever feel well)... I feel if I had a section next time I would avoid many of the other aspects that were difficult; being restrained, being shouted at, not understanding why things were happening.
I do not the section is an easy option! But in my mind it would be easier on me mentally than another unpredictable birth.
I am not in the head space of seeing someone from the NHS (I am seeing the counsellor privately) I can not actually imagine someone saying that to me with out falling to pieces. I would be horrified if they did. I find it completely insensitive when people say don't worry you have a lovely baby, it makes me feel like even more of a failure.

Neolara.... She is medically trained and does usually believe her opinions are right on medical issues.

Stickle.... Maybe. But she is always insistant that she doesn't want kids. Shes only spoke about having to have a cs once before, and was very matter of fact and seemed like she didn't mind. She usually avoids conversations about children/babies as she finds them so boring. She is quite rude about dd. Saying she is disgusting, why is she crying again etc.
The three of us have been very close. We have helped each other loads over the years. I really did not want to bring it up. I feel that I was pushed into defending myself. I'm gutted that I couldn't control my reactions, I have told A how sorry I am. She said it was fine, she has been very kind.

Across the pond.... I completely agree. I don't understand why she said those things, it felt like an attack.
I have started to tell people, it was a huge step telling my mother. I am only just getting to this point. My husband is a saint and has been wonderful, and usually my episodes of anxiousness happen late at night when he is around to help. So I haven't had to explain it to anyone.
I agree! I avoid talking about it at all cost!!! I just didn't know how to avoid this particular conversation, as it was just the three of us having tea, I felt I couldn't just get up and walk off. And the conversation changed so quickly, I felt ambushed.

Thank you all for your replies.

I had a easy birth and imo it was probably a lot less painful in the long term than a c section. I could walk about normally afterwards where as after a c section you have stitches etc to worry about.

I think people need to accept that others need to do what's best for them. I refuse to judge people based on whether or not they had a natural birth. It's not for the weak or low pain thresholds.

You don't sound like a very sympathetic friend yourself, why would you feel it appropriate to go on about your own horrific birth tales when a friend has just announced she is pregnant?

I appreciate that you had a rough time of it but seeing as b will need a section herself it appears she was trying to be sympathetic towards a. it's an unwritten rule amongst the women I know if talking about childbirth around a pregnant person you say It's not that bad you forget it once the baby is here. it might not be true for everyone but no point worrying someone who has to go through it

I think she was trying, tactlessly, to protect friend A from your completely tactless mention of your traumatic birth. Everyone knows you don't talk about that in front of pregnant first timers.

OP have you ever had a debrief with the hospital about your birth?

It sounds like you had a very difficult time of things which has culminated in your having a horrendous experience. Where I used to work we did debriefs to help with the recovery. Being restrained and shouted at would be horrible and you said you didn't understand what was going on. Having a debrief with a doctor who has reviewed your notes and can answer your questions might help you on the way to working through this.

I don't think the whole "well at least you have your baby" train of thought helps at all. It's like saying, well, have you tried not being depressed. You'd no more say than than accuse someone of not trying hard enough not to have an underactive thyroid.

I hope you can resolve your feelings around your birth experience

And friend B is a twat. I would have sent that text!!

At this point I started to fill up with tears and said that no it was horrific, and would rather spend time in intensive care again,

This wasn't a great thing to say to someone who had just announced their first pregnancy. I know it was in response to B but she was responding to your comms t that you would like a section in future

I do empathise - I had a very bad first birth and ended up with a baby in the SCBU. It was awful and I could still cry now just writing about it and my DS is 2. However, I don't talk about it to any first time mothers or even allude to it. Partly because I know It will upset ME talking about it and also because it could scare them and take the shine off their announcement.

I've come to terms with my first birth - partly because I had another baby 13 months later - text book delivery and no tears or even a graze. It can be very different next time - whether it's a natural delivery or a section. Whatever you chose. But I do agree that you need to speak to someone about this and work through what has happened. Have you tried the Birth Trauna Association?

Coffee - it's not insensitive - it is the reality - you can either choose to seek help and move on - or stay "stuck" in the moment of your birth.
And yes part of it is about accepting the trauma you had and moving on from it - recognising that in the present you are alive and well with a healthy baby. You sound very much stuck in your own narrative.

Forceps fwiw IS very much different from a section - do not have a section thinking it will be any better or similar to forceps. Sections are major abdominal surgery - the recovery from heart surgery is surgery due to the nerve endings in the abdominal area. After a hysterectomy women have a prolonged recovery period - after a section women do not get that recovery period because they have to look after their baby.
There are also the risks attached to sections - of which there are many and they DO happen.
My sister had a planned section and ended up in ended intensive care after having a major internal haemorrhage. She arrested in her bed and they called her DP at 3am in the morning as they thought she was dying. She says now she could literally feel life draining away from her.

Coffee there are many many women who have a secret heart break about birth/babies. There comes a point where you need to take stock and live alongside it.

What would have happened if you had not medical intervention in the form of forceps? I'm sure we both the know the answer to that.

You cannot change the way you gave birth, you ultimately don't really have any control on how you give birth next time - Mother Nature does. What you can't change get out of your system , accept it and look to the future.

Else, what are your other options?

Op, I would just like to second those who have suggested that this was principally a misunderstanding. Your remark about wanting a c section next time, while innocently meant, could all have scared friend a and annoyed friend b. You don't seem to have accepted that this was an error of judgement on your part and could have contributed to b's strong reaction. Honestly, wasn't fair to A to suggest that the experience of giving birth can be so awful that major surgery would be preferable. Especially when this was her exciting day to share the pregnancy news with b. If I'd been present I would probably also have tried to suggest your reaction was extreme in order to protect friend a, even if it meant being slightly dismissive about your experience. It just wasn't the time to refer to it. However it sounds like b has a bee in her bonnet when she wouldn't let it drop and you need to talk to her about that. She could be jealous, as others have said. Regardless, your remark about preferring ICU was incredibly insensitive and self absorbed; I don't think you had a right to expect sensitivity at that point when you were showing so little yourself. By all means, get professional help to move on from all this but do also try to remember that many women are also processing comparable trauma and may well be as feeling as fragile as you in some way or other. A childless woman could find it insensitive to hear someone 'moaning' about birth at all. I personally developed a major disability as a result of pregnancy. You're not the only pebble on the beach and it does sound as if you may be forgetting that sometimes.

Op I feel for you. I had a similar birth with my first child and fought tooth and nail to get an elective c section on the nhs, which they granted. It was 100 times easier than my difficult vaginal birth and the recovery was easier for me too. I have no doubt that a straightforward vaginal birth must be a doddle compared to a c section but when you've had a 72 hour labour with a failed epidural and the baby getting stuck at the end then a c section is a walk in the park compared to that. I'd have one again in a heartbeat.

Friend B is not your friend. At all.