How judgemental should I be about my friend who is into dominance/submission and her being around kids?

[TouTou]

Hi, (sorry, long!)
I'm bound to get this wrong and sound either too judgey or to be told to keep my beak out, but there are a few things my friend (who is in a BDSM relationship) is doing that is starting to make me feel uncomfortable for her, and my kids.

Background - I've known this friend for a couple of years. She's a single mum and is incredibly kind and generous. We often do things together with our kids ( she has one the same age as mine, although she also has a son who is 19 as well) like swimming, parks etc. She's the first person I would go to if I needed someone to have my kids if there was an emergency appointment etc.

I've always known she is into 'events' - lots of whipping, roleplay etc, but it's been 'each to his own' for me. She occasionally tells me details, but generally, we stick to ordinary 'friendshippy-kids stuff' But her most recent relationship is making me uncomfortable. I'll bullet point things:

-Her new "dominant" is 2 only years older than her son. Fair enough to have a younger boyfriend, but she now wants to get the family all together for jolly Christmastime. From what I get, this guy is purely there on a sexual basis, he's not really a boyfriend. Her son is a little off the rails already (recent arrests for criminal damage and drunkeness) and I just wonder what affect this will have on him, having this new guy around during the holidays.

• She is always, at the moment, covered in very obvious whip marks, up her legs and on her back and arms. Again, I wonder how that makes her sons feel, seeing that. When my own kids have asked, I said that she must be accident prone or has been sitting on garden chairs too long () She tends to wear fairly skimpy clothes, even in winter. I feel really superficial about this, but I feel a little embarrassed to be around her when she is covered like this. I know it's my problem - isn't it?

-At the moment, she has this guys initials carved into her skin on her chest. Again, I just wish she'd cover it up a little as my daughter is kind of freaked out as I can't come up with a good explanation. This is my problem again, isn't it? I just don't know.

-She is leaving her 10 year old in the care of her 19 year old when she goes to London every other weekend to see her new 'dominant'. The 19 year old is not a reliable babysitter and she knows that the younger boy is being left till 2am often at night by himself. I've taken to having her son at mine instead and raised that the arrangement with her older son might not be safe, but she is adamant the younger DS is fine by himself in the house. In fairness, her 10YO is very street smart.

-I know she 'plays' alot of these 'games' with her dominant (by Skype) while the boys are in the house during the day. Sometimes, the dominant makes her kneel in the corner for 30 mins and he watches on a webcam etc. Is this any worse than having a fumble under the duvet on a sunday morning with your partner? I just don't know anymore, but I find it all a bit unsettling.

-She has to ask the dominant to do any smallest thing. So I spend so much of my time waiting for her to text him and waiting for his response while I'm with her. I kind of feel uncomfortable her carrying out her submissive role while I am there. But because I'm not part of this 'culture' I don't know if I'm being unreasonable or not.

I guess what I'm saying, is this is a good friend, who is in the flushes of a new relationship, but that I feel like I'm, my kids and her kids are being too much drawn into her sex life. Would you say anything? What would you say? Am I being too judgy? or am i putting up with too much from this friend? Mostly, I am worried about the younger DS.

Thank you for any input.

LED Penguin. Thank you. That was just the kind of informed response I was hoping for. Because all this is kind of alien to me (I am horribly boring in my own sex life, part of me is...not jealous, but in awe of how sexually happy she is) that I just have no real context to know if things are crossing the line.

So. I am happy to have her son when she goes to London. I think I will 'insist' on that in future and say that I'm not happy with the level of care her older DS provides. I think it's time to come off the fence on that one.

About the webcam stuff and the texting about 'permission' - I did ask her what she would do if her children needed her when she didn't have permission to move. She looked at me like I was a loon and said "of course, I'd go to my children". She definitely has control over the level of dominance he has over her in the sense that she gave me a talk recently about the issue of consent.

Thank you for confirming the texting is rude. Again, I didn't want to be judgemental about something I have limited understanding of, but I think I will say that in future if they could keep any texts limited to chit chat I'd appreciate it. I don't think these texts are overtly sexual, more like - may I go to the shops with so and so. I did say to her that if he didn't give her permission to go wee in a shop then I would be getting out of there immediately! But yes, I will draw a boundary on that.

I like the script you have given me there. I do really like her as a friend otherwise, and do admire her for knowing what she likes, but I do think it's a bit much in front of the kids to have obvious whip marks. I think I will say that to her next time there is some massive mark.
Thank you again.

I think some people think that not being ashamed about sex and breaking taboos means to shout from the rooftops and swing on the chandeliers for all to see.

I disagree.

I have a friend who is much like yours and we have fallen out before over her 'honest,open and frank' approach towards her preference sexually.
Telling your friends in a private conversation=ok
Telling friends/whoever in a crowded bar=ok I guess
Involving your friend in your sexlife in any form without them consenting/being comfortable=rude and not on.
Openly discussing kinks around children=not right at all!

Certainly not young children and not the children of others.

Being open to questions about sex from children is one thing. Flaunting something like this is very different and not something I think a young person is emotionally equipped to deal with. Sex and love is hard enough for many children and teenagers to understand. Throw in shades of grey and I think it can be damaging.

Hi Mist and Monster,

Honestly, it really doesn't seem too bad when she's texting, it's quite matter of fact, but it does leave me thinking 'ick'.
Yep, I do find it strange about the marks being 'flaunted' - she was helping at the Xmas fete the other day with the cuts on her chest and I didn't know whether to salute the fact that she didn't give a flying wotsit or to want to shuffle away!

You may get a different answer on the rudeness/appropriateness of the texting issue if you ask someone else, but I think it's rude. You haven't asked to be involved in this at all, and it is not your lifestyle, yet it is impacting on her time with you. A 24/7 D/s relationship does not, in my opinion, absolve one from the obligation to try and not make one's friends feel uncomfortable if it can be avoided. Especially if they're friends as openminded and understanding as the OP clearly is.

Hi Widge,
Yes, I do wonder about how the 19YO feels about seeing his mum like that. I know that even seeing my mum and my stepfather even slightly kiss used to make me feel a bit queasy when I was a teen, so if I saw whip marks on her i would have probably passed out in horror!

Whoever said she's acting like a teenager is right. This relationship is about 3 months old and he lives an hour away by train so I think it's very intense, which is why things that didn't bother me the last couple of years are starting to bother me. Honestly though, she is a very warm and lovely person otherwise and has been so kind to me and my family so I'd hate to lose her as a friend.

But you've told her that the 19 year old frequently goes AWOL and leaves the 10 year old alone; so she's perfectly well aware he's unreliable?? . And she's responded that the younger one is fine on his own.
Which he's not. She's nowhere even approaching a "great mum", unless your own standards are extremely suspect

Hi Flogging.
When I'm with her, she's a lovely mum. But I agree, the part about her being happy for her 10YO being left alone makes me deeply uncomfortable. It falls very short of my own standard as I'd never, ever do that. I do live in a different country, (moved here 2 years ago) and I've noticed that kids do seem to have more freedom here, so I've again, found it hard to judge this. I'm constantly surprised what children are allowed to do over here that would be very frowned on in the uk.

By that I mean 5 year old kids walking to bus stops by themselves etc. So I know my standards are a little more uptight than over here.

Sorry, I should have mentioned the 'different country' thing earlier - it just didn't seem that relevant. Also, the city she goes to isn't London, but it's a similar size and distance away as I don't really want to identify where I live because of the sensitive nature of this thread.

I have no experience with this kind of thing at all, so this is just my opinion.

However, I think there are a few worrying things here.

1. She is leaving a 10 year old with a very irresponsible adult who has been done for criminal convictions and who leaves the 10 year old on their own. What if something caught on fire? What if someone broke in? What if the son decided to go out and do something and got attacked? I know you are there but seriously, she should prioritise her own children over her BDSM relationship.

1. She is displaying marks that have been left by her dominant. Now if she was single I'd still find wafting these around the genpo rather disturbing and weird. If she covered them up I'd be a little bit less squeamish about it, but she seems proud of it. What would worry me is that she doesn't know/understand it's inappropriate. Surely everyone knows that you shouldn't do that? Maybe it's just my opinion and I'm just thinking too much but if I was 10 years old and I saw that, I'd think someone was hurting my Mum. If I asked and she didn't give me an answer or worse - explained, I'd be really freaked out. I'd think that kind of thing was normal. Also her 19 year old is bound to know about this now he's older and she's displaying an openly sexual behaviour infront of her adult child - that's just beyond strange. How long has she been into this? He's possibly grown up with this.

1. Her having to get permission for the tiniest of things. As others have said, I'd find this rather rude. Perhaps she could make an arrangement whereby anything that goes out of her routine/involves a nighttime activity could be asked permission for. But I just think it's not appropriate. They are getting turned on about something like this infront of someone else. I wouldn't watch porn or read erotica infront of a friend and carry out a normal conversation whilst being aroused, I don't see much difference.

I also respect peoples opinions and choices in life. If she made sure her son had adequate babysitting, hid her scars and had a prior arrangement as mentioned above I'd say leave her to it, it's her own life.

I doubt when he tells her to wait that she'd take the time to ask him if it's OK to go to her child if he's hurt because if she did, she'd be sick and her child should be taken off her ASAP.

I also worry about the knifeplay. This can get nasty pretty quickly. If someone unexperienced does this to her she could sustain a bad injurty that could leave permanent damage. I'm sure she's aware of this, but this isn't fair on her children.

I don't know, I feel uneasy about it.

Maybe phone up an organisation to ask what they think about it?

Thanks Gimme,

The points you raise sound exactly what I was concerned about. As said, I'm going to put my foot down about the 10YO being left alone with the 19YO. The 19YO convictions are really just cautions - he let off a fire extinguisher in a pub when he was drunk and mucking around with his friends. Idiotic, but he really isn't so bad a kid.But I can now see that my concerns are in line with all yours, so that is good.

I think she's always been into this lifestyle. It's funny, but most of the time her clothes can be pretty mumsy! I will certainly pick her up on the fact that even the people here into BDSM (thank you for the PMs) do not think that welts should be displayed in front of children. Again, as I'm a bit of an innocent, I didn't know if this truly crossed a line.

The knife play is something she has gotten into recently. It's done at an organised club and by someone who has been trained in this (not her dominant). It does gross me out somewhat, but again, she seems to be very controlled and sensible about this aspect of her life. She is such a curious mixture of a person - very sensible in many aspects, completely bemusing to me in others.

I think I will mention to her that a 10YO seeing harm on his mother is not healthy.

I'm glad I didn't just babble on a bit, I have that habit.

But yes a ten year old seeing marks on their mother I could imagine would be rather alarming. He'd think she's been hurt, or maybe old enough to think she has self harmed. At that age children can blame themselves a lot, so he may think he has misbehaved or made her want to hurt herself. Just a bit of covering up could go a long way to stopping these feelings, she doesn't have to stop her BDSM relationship.

I sound like I know a lot about 10 year olds - I was only one of those 13 years ago - but I have a cousin who is nearly 11 and she is so sensitive about things. Her parents split up and she felt she and her brother were part of the cause.

I think she needs to look at the babysitting and what happens irt the marks on her body.

I wont lie I find the thought of someone engraving someone else's initials into their skin really quite nauseating and creepy, but then I'm not into the BDSM scene.

Don't get me wrong I have had my partner playfully slap my bum or tell me he wants me now etc but it's a very different league and should stay that way, because I wouldn't like to lose control and that's really what it boils down to.

I hope she listens to your concerns. If you are a good friend and she is an open person, she should take on board what you have said.