Universal, free childcare - is it a solution?

[KateMumsnet]

This week, Mumsnet Blogger Mummyisagadgetgeek reports back from an event organized by the thinktank Progress on the subject of universal childcare. Should they win the next election, Labour are considering it as a possible policy - so we thought it would be good to find out what it was all about.

So: read her blog report from the event, tell us what you think here on the thread - and if you blog, let us know about it. We'll be tweeting posts next week.

govt is not suggesting paying housewives?why pay for what is already undertaken free
don't think govt will make daycare compulsorily or coerce legions into childcare work
and I imagine core hours provision with extended hours for key workers,shift workers.and no it won't be bespoke to every parents different needs,how could it be?

boffinmum, no but the vast, vast majority are women, and co-incidentally/not co-incidentally childcare is generally not a very well paid profession.

People of course can form their own arrangements. Communes can be set up. Groups of people can buy a large country house and share childcare or groups of parents can set up mutual arrangements. In Valerie Grove's book about women with large families who worked (The Compleat Woman? - worth buying on Amazon for very little from about 20 years ago) and had long happy marriages one of those women had set up a nursery in her basement to solve her own childcare problem.

In Israel Kibbutzim had that principle too - some people work the land, some mind everyone's children and money is pooled.

"I am inclined to ask what is wrong with the idea of paying an additional universal benefit for children under fives. "

what's wrong with it is that there is not some freely available pot of money to be dipped into because it sounds like a nice idea

it's not just state money, or nobody's money until it's given out and claimed - it's taxed income

Thanks, Brycie. Haven't double-checked but I suspect you are against state funded universal child-care in any case? I was really hoping to hear from someone who wasn't. I am not seeking a bunfight. Just to clarify some trains of thought.

Xenia, thanks for posting book recomendation. I will look it up (finding the idea of a nursery in a basement slightly odd, but that's probably beside the point.

Yes, I would be. I think it would be a well intentioned tits up to be honest! Sorry if I looked abrasive. Excuse me.

The govt is looking at universal childcare to allow women back to work. It has to be funded by the state with some parental contribution like most countries do...it cannot expect provider to subsidise it

If this was the case I agree to it but I am against the current system when we, the providers, subsidise parents and govt...unacceptable we should do so

Sounds v communist to me....

there is a univeral benefit for under fives in the form of free childcare for 15 hours pre school. This might not meet all the needs but is a damn sight lot more than our predessors were given. There should be no further subsidy otherwise it wouldn't be fair to all the millions who never received this. Its not sour grapes on my behalf as I was eligible but I didn't use it.

Yes, I remember Labour brought it in - it was at the time a top up for age 4 (not then aged 3) towards their private school fees - £600 voucher which came off the term's fees.

(not enough it was one of those large London terraced houses with massive rooms in basement and some natural light.... and I imaguine they let them out to go to the park
www.amazon.co.uk/The-Compleat-Woman-Marriage-Motherhood/dp/0701129255/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352013115&sr=8-1 2.48 including postage. VG still writes 20 years on. I think the issues when she wrote the book are still similar today. It was the combination of large family, happy marriage and mother very successful in work which I found so interesting )

Morethanpotatoprints

The FREE ENTITLEMENt of 15 hours per week is funded by central govt and given to our Local Authorities who decide how much we should be paid...unfortunately some LAs give us 'peanuts' to 'educate children' and we lose money
I am in no position as a c/minder to 'SUBSIDISE' parents their 15 free hours and no one should...it would be good for parents to recognize this rather than just demand even more out of the state

XENIA
UNIVERSAL Free Education means all embracing, widespread, available to all
You are right Labour brought it in for 4 year olds then it went to 3 year olds (you are right you were allowed to top up then NOT now)
From next year it will cover the most disadvantaged 2 year olds (about 260,000) but the scheme is under threat because there are not enough spaces.... except c/ms do have the spaces but blocked from delivery

The Free Entitlementit is not universal because 75% of c/ms are blocked by Local Authorities 'red tape' from delivering unless we belong to a childminding network...some LAs have them some not... some are only open to a few c/ms....so our families have been paying higher fees if their children are with a c/m not in a network contributing to the rising cost of childcare

Universal childcare may become available for all children nationwide but parents must not expect providers to fund it for them...
as many said previously we are poorly paid so the poor cannot fund the better off

Thanks. Yes, I had it for the twins aged 4 and it could be used against private school fees which I most amused by - that the Labour Government was giving me a voucher to set against private school fees. Wow. Obviously it a tiny proportion of the cost anyway but was nice to have.

I cannot imagine it is anything like the cost of the childcare, just a token contribution. It is hard to make money running a nursery if you are working at that kind of rate.

As I suggested above some parents do club together for childcare. We never shared as we had a lot of children ourselves but certainly hiring one person to work in our house to look after our 3 children under 4 seemed the most cost effective solution.

If mothers swap chidlren there was that case in the papers about needing to be registered which was interesting. i have forgotten the details. I think if they looked after the child in the home of the mother who was working they were absolutely fine. If instead they took that child into the home of the mother who wasn't working on that day they weren't which is ridiculous over regulation but not that hard to get around - just ensure you are at the working parents' house with your own children on the day you care for her child and vice versa.

The 15 hours is an English - not UK universal thing. Here, in Wales, I am entitled to only 10 hours a week at age 4 and 5. I have to use this in 2 hour blocks (i.e. I cannot offset the entitlement against my nursery fees). Effectively, if you are using childcare to work there is no help until they reach 5 where I live. If universal childcare is about the parents, as well as the child, it has to flexible.

Picking up on Xenia's point, I think I recall that Shirely Williams shared a large house (or two joined together) with another family and that they shared childcare.

Morethan I find it an odd argument to say that if our predecessors never had, we shouldn't either in the name of fairness. Would you apply this to everything?

I think we tried harder with these childcare things in the days when we got no maternity leave or pay and life was tougher, no tax credits, no housing benefit (and I am old enough to remember those days). I never had a baby and had maternity rights amazingly although that in a sense was my salvation so I had to keep on full time work and thus I earn a small fortune 30 years on. In other words the lack of rights made me do better.

I was just idly musing that if my 5 children have children and live locally (one is engaged) then may be in my very big house we could have some kind of communal arrangement for my grandchldren (if any) - hopefully there won't be 25 of them at once!

I can see two ways of it working. A large network of state-run nurseries, offering free access. Sounds impractical and Labour would not want to create a negative impact on the private sector. Or a voucher based scheme, where the cost of a place at a state nursery could be used to fund or part-fund any approved childcare. That could be supplemented by state-run nurseries operating at no charge. The only way to fund it would be to use it to replace tax credits and possibly even child benefit.

It would be very difficult to predict the impact. I'd like to see a breakdown of many women (and a much smaller number of men) currently stay at home with their children and whether they would like to return to work. Plus how many women work part-time and would increase their hours if that was feasible. How many more childcare places would be needed and how would they be created? I think quite a few people simply don't want to work full-time when they have young children. How many of those people would be forced back into the labour market?

It could actually potentially work as a massive economic stimulus in the way infrastructure investment has in the past. In fact, it would probably need infrastructure investment.

"I was just idly musing that if my 5 children have children and live locally (one is engaged) then may be in my very big house we could have some kind of communal arrangement for my grandchldren (if any)."

Oh Xenia, can't you leave your children to lead their own lives? They and their families don't need you running a matriarchal support system to carry on controlling them forever...

On this point about people being 'forced' into work when they'd rather spend more time with their children whilst they are young -this is a half formed thought - but perhaps any more along these lines should be accompanied a greater commitment to employees' rights to request part-time/flexible/job share hours.

A large network of state run nurseries...what a thought...no thank you
The present system allow choice to parents: nursery, preschool or c/minder
Only c/ms offer the continuity of care for years to come instead of these poor children changing settings every year!!! I have met children who had 7 different carers in one week!!!
Time to put children first not cost...investment in early years reaps rewards later

Yes of course Wales is different...my apologies...as is Scotland with their own system
15 hours of free childcare does not allow women to return to work but 25 may do so and that is why it has been proposed...but the govt must fund it and it should be available to all children=universal

Registration for providers has increased quality and accountability...
it is very beaurocratic making childcare expensive but I would not want to return to a deregulated system...those caring and educating children must be accountable...too many parents use 'unregistered' cminders because it is cheaper but at what risk? one accident and those parents have no leg to stand on..in addition unregistered care is illegal so those parents are encouraging it

State funded childcare does not mean that private providers can't compete. Just as with private/state education private nurseries can fill in the gaps such as continuation of care until the end of primary school, Steiner/Montessori/additional language and such. It would also help primary schools to have children prepared to be in group, listen to teacher etc.
Also is "forced by government" an euphemism for "it would be difficult to justtify staying at home if such childcare was available"? In France where it is customary to send children to a nursery early women choosing to bring up their children are under a lot of pressure to return to work and there is very little when it comes to playgroups etc. Is that what a lot of posters are worried about?

"In France where it is customary to send children to a nursery early women choosing to bring up their children are under a lot of pressure to return to work and there is very little when it comes to playgroups etc."

I live in France and, yes, the pressure on families to put children in a crèche and to return to work is very great. Crèche has become so normalised that people complain that there aren't enough crèche places for 100% of the population (in the way that there are enough schools for 100% of the population).

A creche in england is different...for instance gyms have a creche while the mothers use the gym the creche looks after children...it is not comparable to a nursery or c/m...don't they have 'ecole maternelle' in France?

I think Bonsoir uses creche as a general term for preschool childcare not in the English meaning of the word.

is "forced by government" an euphemism for "it would be difficult to justtify staying at home if such childcare was available"?

Yes, it is. I did not mean it to be euphemistic. I wouldn't choose it myself, but I know that others would like to be able to. I think it should be recognised that some parents would like to spend a significant portion of their time with their children in the early years. I do not perceive children as a luxury that only the wealthiest should feel entitled to. Nor do I do not pereive that staying at home to raise young children is a 'luxury' since raising young children is hard work. I appreciate that some people disagree with my views on this. If universal childcare were available, those in the weakest positions may, indeed, feel forced to take on low paid jobs with long hours and poor prospects. This is my primary concern about the whole idea.

"A large network of state run nurseries...what a thought"

There could be benefits though:

• Same cost wherever you live
• All working to the same standards, may even all have exactly the same equipment (buying in bulk creates savings)
• Staff are on nationally agreed pay scales, possibly with additional allowances in some areas (like civil service)
• Staff can move from nursery to nursery easier as their work history is known
• All nurseries open the same hours, all close the same days.

But there are negatives as well, such as children being allocated a nursery, parents not getting any choice, people not being allowed to run their own businesses, lots of state control so an unscrupulous government could do all sorts of things... large scale testing of a product/drug on children for example?

It would be bad news for me, it would be bad news for Italiana - as childcare providers we don't work in the nursery sector, so we would be out of work.

I can't see government going down that route - SureStart Nurseries existed, some may still exist and in some areas there are still state nurseries. However most nurseries are private sector, I can't see them all converting to being run by government.

A French crèche is nursery-style childcare from 2 months-3 years. Ecole maternelle is pre-school, from 3 - 6 years.

In England the word "crèche" is widely used to mean what the French call a halte garderie = a drop-in or occasional nursery.