Need to gain some perspective: misogynist brother?

[Booboobedoo]

This is long (and probably boring), but I just need to get some perspective really. I'd be grateful for any feedback if you can be bothered.

Background: I've always had a slightly tense relationship with my brother (only sibling and two years younger than me), and since we've become adults I've come to the conclusion that he views women from a somewhat misogynistic angle.

He's been really appalling to me in the past (since we've grown up), and I've also been shocked hearing the way he's spoken to girlfriends and about female colleagues.

I've tried to put these feeling aside, as my parents' view appears to be that it's all down to sibling rivalry and that's made me question my judgement for years.

Now to the present.

I took DS to my parents' a couple of days ago, to have lunch with them and my brother. I'm 31 weeks pregnant, and had been very sick all that morning - plus I'd been up with DS since 5am.

I texted to say I was leaving, but then had a rotten journey which took half an hour longer than usual.

When I arrived, they'd started eating (hadn't got my text), but hadn't put chairs out for DS and I. No-one offered, so I lumbered off to get two chairs while Mum got our lunch and Dad and DB sat and ate. ('ve also had bleeding recently and been told to take it easy. They know this).

By the time I sat down I was in a bad mood, but tried to take deep breaths and make pleasant chit-chat.

Conversation swings round to my parents friend's daughter who has to go back to work when her baby reaches ten months, and will have to put the baby in nursery five days a week.

Cue much shaking of heads from my family, and buttoned lip from me.

However, my brother then got on his soapbox and started talking about female colleagues of his who come back to work after having children.

"I ask them: why are you back at work? Do you know what they say? They want to come back. They want the adult company. Why do they bother having children?"

I tried to stay calm, but with a slight wobble to my voice (bear in mind I'm quite heavily pregnant) I asked him if he asked the same aggressive question of male colleagues who return to work after having children? Apparently it's not the same. They earn more (wtf???). These women are Bad Mothers for wanting to work.

(I am a SAHM, but this Fucking Enrages me).

I lost it and called him a misogynist and left the room. (DS was not in the room for this exchange).

I later apologised for calling him a misogynist (as name-calling doesn't help), and an uneasy truce was achieved.

My Mum made it clear that she was angry with me for losing my temper, and took my brothers' side.

However, she forgave me before I left, saying I was probably tired and emotional.

What I want to do is 1) get in touch with my brother and ask him not to raise gender-parenting issues in front of me again, as we're only going to to argue; and 2) Let my parents know that this is not a sibling rivalry issue, and I'm angry with my mother for taking sides.

WWYD? Should I put it down to hormones and just leave it? I'm really bloody angry, tbh.

My brother is nearly 33, and I'm nearly 35.

Thanks for reading if you've made it this far.

Bump.

Bump

Well.

I'm not surprised you are angry.

This is obviously a long running issue for you. Do you need the stress of going to battle about it at 31 weeks pregnant?

You cannopt change your brother's behaviour. What you can do is change your reaction to him. Don't let him get to you. Other MNers will be able to give you a goofd 'broken record' response for him, and then move on.

Easier said than done, I know, and especially when you are hormotional.

He does sound unpleasant, but he's had a lifetime's encouragement from your parents by the sound of it.

I don't know what I would actually do in your position, though, other than spend a lot less time with any of my family.

Actually, I might at least try the conversation with my mother along the lines "Mum, I would appreciate it if you would not put every disagreement that X and I have down to 'sibling rivalry'. We are both adults. If any other adult man of my acquaintance made the remarks about women that X makes, I would challenge them just as clearly. In fact, if anything I am less forceful with X because he's my brother. Please stop trivialising the fact that we have a genuine difference of opinion." But I wouldn't expect it to make any difference, given what you've described.

Thank you both.

I'm so muddled at the moment, I genuinely can't see the wood for the trees.

Do you think it would be a good idea to put this in an e-mail to my parents? I'm a bit worried that it will seem passive-aggressive, but I'm horribly prone to crying atm, and I don't think I'll be able to make my point clearly on the phone/face-to-face.

I've lain awaked worrying about this for two nights, now.

The thing is, I'll probably be even more wobbly once DD is born, and I'm dreading Christmas Day in case he starts again, and I explode and ruin the day for everyone.

(I can usually control my temper honestly, but when DS was born I lost all control until he was about six months).

That's why I'm trying to take some adult control of the situation now.

I would be upset by this, and because of no one helping you when you arrived - that's appalling.

I have (unfortunately) a mysogynist mother (women shouldn't work once children arrive, putting your child into nursery before 3 y/o is uncaring and evil, when SIL was off work between jobs - "now she's being a real wife and mother") blah blah blah AND a really stupid SIL who comes out with comments like "I don't want to wear dresses to work in case someone thinks I'm the secretary".

I just ignore them, as I know I'm not going to change their mind, and they're not going to change mine.

I would also talk to your mother - does she normally take his side over yours? Does she normally treat you two as if you are still children, rather than adults? I had this with DM as well, treating me as if I'm a child and trying to tell me how to run my life (despite being 28, and doing various things indicating that i'm an adult). It may be that you need to think about how you relate to each other.

Booboobedoo - the source of your frustration is not necessarily in the fact that your brother is blinkered and mysogynistic, or even that your parents are hopelessly old-fashioned in their views about women.

The clue is in your comment "Cue much shaking of heads from my family, and buttoned lip from me."

This is why you blew up/lost it with him.

If a family member says anything which you know to be bollocks in the future, don't let this build into a situation.

Just calmly say "what a load of utter rubbish", and carry on with what you were doing (eating, playing with DS, etc.).

I do this all the time. I have gained the reputation of being slightly difficult and "Ooh you don't want to upset Quavers, you know what she's like", but at least I don't have other people's utter fucking nonsense foisted onto me.

If you take this tack, I guarantee they will get irate before you do. As you say, you're 31 weeks pregnant. Let everyone else do the getting upset.

AbsofCroissant - I think it's certainly true that I need to address my relationship with my mother. I always thought it was very strong, but since having DS it's become increasingly clear that this is because I constantly defer to her.

I think I actually have a more overtly strong character than her, but I realise now that this has been used to undermine me since I was a child. Anyhoo, stuff for another thread.

MAQ: you've hit the nail on the head, really. I've become used to keeping the peace in my (original) nuclear family since becoming an adult, particularly with my brother. This stems from guilt I've carried for years (encouraged by my mother) over perfectly normal sibling unpleasantness in our childhood. He was always seen as the victim.

I shall work hard at your technique once life gets back to normal, but I just don't have the requisite control when I'm pregnant and/or sleep-deprived.

my parents are horribly sexist - it's my dad who winds me up, but i have to stay quiet because 'he's my father', and i shouldn't answer back to him. that means that really i don't get to have my say, and he can say what he wants. if we do argue, mum will tell me off later, as she thinks us women should just defer to the men.

are there any stock phrases you could deliver that might sound vaguely 'amusing' but get your point across? are they religious? a lot of misogynist comments are based on religious beliefs, and people accept them, but reject the religion. could you say anything like 'cos when a woman gets pregnant god takes away her brain as otherwise ti would be wasted while she stays home?'

if you laugh & disagree, then it might come across better?

btw - if you do disagree with either your brother or father, not shouting, just saying what you think, do you still get told off? is it that you're supposed to keep quiet & know your place, or that it's the argument that your mum dislikes?

KAA - It's the arguing, really; and whoever loses their temper is automatically in the wrong. It's a family-wide issue.

It's taken lots of CBT to lead me to the conclusion that a) it's better not to lose my temper but that b) losing it does not make the basic points I'm making less valid.

My family have trouble accepting this.

My family are not religious (so that's one less misogynist tool in the toolbox), but my Dad has a big problem with the fact that his Mum worked when he was a child and he was a 'latch-key kid', and my Mum's Mum stayed at home but sound like she had raging PND to me.

Familys are so bloody complicated.

At the moment I just want them all to go away tbh.

Anyway, I've e-mailed my brother to (very politely) ask him not to raise these specific issues at family gatherings again for the sake of a quiet life, and I've e-mailed my parents to ask them essentially to respect my adult status.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to answer - thank you so much. I can't tell you how helpful it's been.

I hope you're feeling a bit better, just for offloading on email booboobedoo. Just don't expect a mature and balanced response... :)

You are doing marvellously for coping with this whilst being 31 weeks pregnant with DS who's giving you no rest. I'm 31 weeks pg too, but I don't have the responsibility of any other DC's to worry about, other than the cat.

Now, rest.

Thanks MAQ. I am feeling better.

Wrt DS, I'm actually finding this pregnancy easier than the first one, as he is so funny and distracting. He keeps me cheerful.

Also, just to update, I got an e-mail back from my Mum unreservedly apologising and saying she completely sees my point.

Unexpected, but great.

I'm tearful now, but much more relaxed.

Booboobedoo, more power to you and hopefully your idiot brother will think twice before foisting his sexist ideas on people. He got just what he deserved.

And what about the fact that he didn't help you with the chairs? Did the rest of your charming family notice?

Blimey

That's a great reaction. You go girl!

And your DS sounds like a little star...

Glad you're feeling better.

i'm guessing that the brother isn't married?

My brother is currently trying for a baby with his girlfriend.

Lord help us.

I mean, he's not all bad. He's a very... um... extreme person.

Also my parents are usually very supportive, which is why I was so particularly upset on this occasion.

Anyway, I think I've done enough agonising and family-analysing for now. I'll come back to this when (not-yet-born) DD is older and this stuff is becoming an issue for her, I think.

Thanks again everyone.

Another update for those of you who've been kind enough to read/post.

I got an e-mail from DB this morning saying that it was 'good to get these things out in the open' and that he loves me.

No apology as such, but then from his point of view he was expressing his opinion and got called an unpleasant name by his sister.

Hopefully this will be the end of it for now, but I have decided that should the kind of situation arise again in which I'm verbally abused by my brother (I know that isn't what happened this time but it has in the past) and receive no support from my parents I will just leave.

I won't go back either until there is an acknowledgement that this is unacceptable.

God this has dragged so much up. Must just focus on DS, baby and non-abusive, supportive DH.

Could have been a lot worse, booboo
I'm glad your DB didn't just dismiss you as a hoemonal female.

You're right about not accepting it in the future though, just treat any nonsense with the contempt it deserves.

Good luck with your burgeoning bump .

Hormonal, actually

Tut

That'll be the hormones affecting your typing MAQ.

I know... I can't do anything at the moment!!!