Child neglect? Should I report it?

[Toffeefudgecake]

Have twice met a little girl (7) on her own in a local playground attached to some flats. The first time she was with her four-year-old sister. The second time she was on her own. On neither occasion did she or her sister have an adult with her. She became very attached to me and my son (4) and we spent a long time with her. She was cold so I lent her my cardigan to wear. She told me that she was allowed to play out alone till 9pm.

On the first time, I left her and her little sister playing alone in the playground, which went against all my instincts. On the second occasion (when she was alone), I walked her back to her flat because she said she was frightened of going up the stairs on her own. I heard her mother greet her as she walked in. However, as I walked away, I saw her come out again.

She was a sweet little thing and I felt very protective of her and worried that she was vulnerable. I think she knows a lot of people in the flats, but even so she did seem very exposed. Also, she attached herself very quickly to me and even sat on my lap. Obviously, I am no risk, but someone else might be.

I don't know what to do. I don't think she is the only child allowed to play out alone at such a young age in this environment. I don't agree with it myself, but lots of parents around there seem to do it. I don't want to mess up her family life, but I don't want a child to be so vulnerable either.

What would you do? And if there are any social workers or other childcare professionals out there, what would you advise? I know which school she goes to, incidentally, so I was wondering if I should approach them.

My work colleague contacted social services over a case very similar to this (same age, level of 'neglect' etc)

Child was put on at risk register and family have seemingly benefitted from ss intervention.

It's interesting to read the differences of opinions here. I would not like to think of myself as a helicopter parent, but I am certainly typical of many modern parents in that I keep a fairly close eye on my children when they are young. I just think it is too risky to leave young children unsupervised. They do not have the experience or judgement to protect themselves, in my opinion. However, I do see my role as a parent to be one of giving my children increasing responsibility and freedom as they grow up, so I obviously give my 10-year old much more freedom than my 4-year old.

I am very aware that social services are overstretched (who isn't?), which is another reason I hesitate to report this. However, that is no reason not to report something if you are concerned.

Chocolateorange - interesting to hear of a similar case where the intervention of ss actually helped the family.

Onagar - I don't want my children to be fearful of strangers and have never told them that strangers are frightening. They are friendly and polite to strangers who speak to them. However, they get loads of affection at home and would never want to sit on a stranger's lap, as this little girl did within a short time of me meeting her. I was once told by a social worker that one of the danger signs she looked for in cases of neglect was children who attached themselves indiscrimately to adults. She specialised in fostering and it was one of the things she had to help foster parents deal with.

Oblomov - re the campsite question. We have been to campsites for the past two years. Last year, when my son was 9, I let him go out and play with the new friends he'd made there. I set rules (eg, don't leave the campsite) and he had a wonderful time. I wasn't worried because there were no cars there (one of my major concerns). I wouldn't let my 3-year old out on his own, however. To be honest, I would not have let my son do this at 7, but he was not anywhere near mature enough at that age anyway. This is a matter of judgement, of course, and it may be that the mother of the little girl in the playground feels she is sensible enough to play unsupervised.

It is not clearcut, which is why I asked the question in the first place.

I'm glad you posted this. I saw a child who appeared to be aged about 7 out on his own and was a little concerned recently. I tried to work out why I was concernd and why I thought it odd. I think it was more to do with the fact that he was on his own so seemed vulnerable.

If you see a group of mixed age kids, some quite young, playing together outside it doesn't seem a problem. They just seem so vulnerable on their own and they are.

The boy I saw was paddling in a stream at a green near me where I walk my dogs. It was a very hot day and he still had on a school jumper and wondered if anyone knew where he was let alone cared. I've seen him a couple of times there. He takes of his school trousers off when he paddles. It's only gets to about a foot and a half deep but I was a little worried. Later that evening I saw him in our local high street, still in school uniform, coming out of a shop and heading around the back to the flats. So his home was about a 7 minute walk from where I saw him.

The last time I tried cahtting to him and it turns out he's 9 but small for his age. Still think he's very vulnerable though.

So if there were a group of 7 year old playing together in the park that would be ok then as saftey in numbers? But if you will not let your children out to play at 7 - then there will never be the numbers.. for the few that are allowed out to play without adult supervision in a close proximitey

I ran this by a friend of mine who works for the police control unit.

She told me that a lone seven year old out at 9pm would be considered an emergency. They would be taken home and "cross referenced" with ss. Ss would definitely be required to follow up the report. A 2 year old out in the care of a 7 year old might very well lead to emergency foster care for the children.

A dim view would be taken of this behaviour.

Thank goodness for that.

Thank you for checking this alouiseg. That is really useful. The younger child was four, by the way, not two, but I presume this would still be taken very seriously. Would the police act on this even if it was daytime, or only if it was late, I wonder?

I can't check with her ATM as it's a bit late but I will ask her tomorrow.

Toffee, I take it seriously, you take it seriously and the police would take it seriously. If you see her again, and I'm sure you will, please call them.

If a 7 year old was out alone in my quiet sleepy village there would be some serious involvement from us and we wouldn't hesitate to make sure that this wasn't just the tip of a very unpleasant iceberg for the child.

alouiseg there is an enormous difference between a 2 year old and a 4 year old though.

And your police friend might very well take a 7 year old home (as they sometimes do with anyone under 16 who they consider to be "at risk") but that doesn't mean that either the child is being neglected or indeed the police believe that to be the case.

Having personally dealt with a number of criminal neglect cases I can categorically say that being out alone at 9pm at aged 7 doesn't necessarily equate to neglect. However it may be indicative of neglect in other areas and it will be that which the police are following up not the fact that a child is playing out alone per se.

But this wasn't at 9pm. The OP did not see the child at 9pm. The girl SAID that she was allowed out till 9. That is a totally different thing. we don't know for sure if she is ever allowed out at that time.
Plus the sibling was not 2. she was 4.
And this is what makes me cross. people like alouise completely over-reacting.
"If a 7 year old was out alone in my quiet sleepy village there would be some serious involvement from us".
God save us from these over anxious twonks.
It may be a sign of neglect. but on its own there is no cause for concern.i agree with nancy: "doesn't necessarily equate to neglect. However it may be indicative of neglect ".

you are making a rash decision, based on limited information. this needs more info before any reasonable conclusion can be reached.

We live in a close. 7 houses. a couryard infont of our house. Next time ds1(6.6) rides around on his bike, infront of our kitchen window and i stand washing up. i can see him. not all the time. he rides round and round so i see him every few seconds for a few seconds. and then i don't see him for a bit.

so alouise, he is outside. playing. unsupervised. best you report me too, while you're at it. neglect.
i knew you weren't accusing me of it before. but you can accuse me of it now, if you like.

I'm with Oblomov too. I think the OP is making a huge leap from a more laid back parent then her to neglect.

I think I would have to report it. Other children may play out that late by themselves but that does not make it right. I would report it for your own piece of mind. If something happenned to her and you didnt report it, you would feel awful.

I'm with Oblomov - 20 yrs ago all children used to go out to play by themselves. What has changed?

My boys (9 and 5) play outside all the time, so do all the other children on the street. It is a quiet cul de sac and it is like the 1950s. I feel sorry for all the battery chicken children out there.

I have also just spoken to a friend of mine who is in CID and he said all cases are different and common sense needs to be applied. There is no blanket rule.

scarlettbee, report what, exactly ? have you read the thread ?
she wasn't out late. op met her and the girl said she was allowed out till 9.
and when you say, if something happened to her. what do you mean ? if what happened ?

Over anxiety is bad parenting. it is not balanced. and that is not good. you inflict your anxiety onto your children. denying them the freedom they are entitled to. that is bad parenting.

If you phone social services, you accuse the parent of abuse or neglect. Its that simple. Social services are there to protect children from abuse or neglect. social services job/role really is that simple(or complicated, depends how you look at it).

So you suspect abuse ?
you suspect neglect ?

on what grounds ?
you can't just report someone willy nilly. you have to have reason. grounds.

Altinkum, who is a SW and posts on Mn, has said that from the inital call:
"we need to follow up on ALL calls for every 100 calls, 50% of them are being abused in some form."

what a waste of resources. 1/2 of cases should be refered. and the other 1/2 should not.
Have any of you taken this on board. people refer people that don't need refering and waster 1/2 of a sw'ers valueable time. This is mad.
sw'ers need to follow up on every call. but only 1/2 of them are real. the other half, wasting precious sw'er time, is from silly concerns, from over anxious people, just becasue they don't parent in this way. which is totally different from actual 'abuse' or 'neglect'.

As I understand it, the Every Child Matters Agenda basically says that anyone who has concerns about a child's welfare can and should report it to someone who can check things out.

Regardless of whether us lot think the child is being abused or neglected, if you see something that worries you, you should report it. I understand the points about SWers being overworked, but surely the whole point of community involvement is that the community gets involved and doesn't think that it'll probably be all right, because it probably will be all right, but it just might not be

Squonk I raised this issue in one of my PP but if you want community involvement then shouldn't the OP just knock on the mums door and have a polite conversation with her?

If Mum says "F off you nosey bitch she is my DD and I will treat her how I like" by all means call SS.

Altenatively mum might say "OH Hi thanks for dropping by, X loves playing in that park - can't keep her out of it, you know what they are like . Gosh we haven't met before have we, X and I know pretty much everyone living here perhaps you'd like to pop round for a cup of tea?"

"If a 7 year old was out alone in my quiet sleepy village there would be some serious involvement from us and we wouldn't hesitate to make sure that this wasn't just the tip of a very unpleasant iceberg for the child."

This statement scares me far more than the thought of a 7 yr old out on their own in the evening. "serious involvement" - really? What, exactly? I'm glad I don't live in your viallge if people there have such nasty, suspicious, judgemental mindsets.

Drusilla, I agree. Apart from reporting it to SS it officially becomes none of your business. SS don't go around giving feed back once a complaint has been made.

Worrying sign from the OP is the way the little girl attached herself to an unknown adult and sat on her lap. And I'm not convinced it's OK for a 7yo to be in charge of a 4yo.

However, it all depends on context. Ds has been playing out in our road since he was 4.5. It's a cul de sac, we all know each other, and children only play out in a group, there's never one on his or her own. When ds was 4.5, I kept quite a close eye on him, now he's 7 the monitoring is a lot less. No-one not on our road can see into the bit where the children play, it's quite tucked away but is overlooked by the houses.

If I or any of the other parents saw any strangers in the road approaching the children we'd be out of the door very fast finding out what was going on. And the children know very clearly they are not to go off on their own or with any strangers. (At least ds does, haven't interrogated every single one of the neighbours' children.)

(Oh, and I leave my front door on the latch so ds can come into the house at any time. As do the other parents. Appreciate we are very lucky to live somewhere where this is possible. I have a wind chime on the front door so I can hear if ds is coming in or going out even if I'm upstairs.)

Alouise your sanctimonious views are really really frightening. its people like you that kill community spirit.
people are too frightened to become friends with people, because people like you are over anxious you do damage to others.
God save me from people like you. Makes me so sad.
What has the world come to when , whne someone says :"If a 7 year old was out alone in my quiet sleepy village there would be some serious involvement from us and we wouldn't hesitate to make sure that this wasn't just the tip of a very unpleasant iceberg for the child."

and no one tells you that this kind of view is just WRONG.
I am so glad you don't live near me. I am so glad that the people in our town seem pleasant and the school mums at ds's school are so loving and caring. look out for eachother.
not like you.

its poeple like you who kill community spirit and make people just want to keep 'themselves-to-themsleves'.

Goodness, what a debate has been going on whilst I've been away.

Firstly, I think you should all lay off alouiseg. I would far rather someone was concerned about children's safety than not. Lots of people - Scarletdebee, Squonk, Edam, etc. - have suggested I call someone, not just alouiseg.

Oblomov - your situation sounds completely different from the one I have described. You can see your son riding past on his bike whilst you are at the window. Nobody is accusing you of neglect. You say silly overanxious people are wasting ss's time - but I haven't called anyone. I am not ringing social services up 'willy nilly', as you say. I am simply asking a question for the very reason that it is not clearcut. I didn't get straight on the phone to report it, because I agree that the situation doesn't necessarily show neglect. This is why I asked the question in the first place. However, I feel uneasy about the little girl's situation - in particular, the fact that she was alone with her four-year-old sister (she was not 'looking after' her, in any sense) and that she attached herself to me so easily. She seemed to need affection, which was sad.

Also, Oblomov, you are very lucky that you live in a place where everyone seems pleasant and the school mums are so 'loving and caring'. On the whole, that is true here too - but there are a significant number of mums round here who are anything but loving and caring. They shout and swear, rather than talk, at their children. They don't take care of them when they are crossing the road. I once saw a little boy (about 2)sitting in the road and his mother could not even be bothered to get up from the nearby wall to get him out of the road. She was on her mobile and she just carried on talking and occasionally shouting at him to get up. He could have been run over. I find it deeply upsetting to see children treated so carelessly.

Several of you have described how your children can run in and out of your houses, but these all seem to be very different situations. This little girl is in a playground that is not observable from her mother's house and nobody checked on her or her little sister during the couple of hours that we were there. Both girls seemed very vulnerable.

Anyway, I'm away from home at the moment, so will not be reporting anything to anyone. However, if - when I go back to this playground - I have reason to remain concerned about the little girl and her sister, I will phone the NSPCC for advice.

I can't imagine a world where the police would be called out to a child of 7 playing on their own near to their home in the daylight of afternoon

Why does everyone who thinks I'm wrong to be concerned keep forgetting the four-year old?